Post your Cycle Theory/Hypothesis

[marcus300]

AWESOME!!!!


The epitome of of experience!!


Couldn't agree more!!Read this post and you've learned valuable secrets!

~Pinnacle~

thanks Pinn,

[SPIKE]

I'm not going to up my doses this time around. I will stay at 750 mgs of test and 800 EQ or 150mgs of Tren EOD for this year long cycle.

Personally from my experience (as I"m sure you have more) after about 3 months or so at the same dose results seem to slow down and sometimes cease. That is a sign to either add something new to the puzzle or time to come off. In my case at the age of 25 I feel its better to come off. Natty levels recover quite quickly at my age and I"ll take a few months off before trying something again.

I would think for someone as yourself something like Pinn stated in thread #35 (A) would work great. I think you thought about that in your note when you stated that you might drop your dosage to 250mgs for some time. But then that contridicts your initial statement of being on for a year straight at 750mgs. I know how it is, I"m sure you have 100 different approaches in your head just contemplating which one to use.

Either way I wish you the best and keep us updated. I love to hear how it's going.

[shortie]

Trying to get my thoughts gathered, may take awhile but bear with me.

Having run SHIC cycles as well as long term cycles(although nothing over 16 wks)I tend to be in favor of the longer run. I had good gains on SHIC type cycle but with less retention than those over a longer period of time. Now, I didn't try to cycle again immediately after and maybe this would eliminate/temper gain loss. Having read through the recent posts Pinnacle has brought out as well as doing some reading elsewhere I have some thoughts on how I will attempt my next cycle.

First off, from reading said articles I believe one of the key points is that while ARs upregulate for the first portion of the cycle, 8 wks and then begin to downregulate to a level closer to those without AAS. My thinking is that the body gets a rush of exogenous hormones and this stimulates AR production, but with time the body begins to see this as homeostasis and downregulates the AR production process. To combat this I am going to theorize(as well as try it in my next cycle)that one could run the first 7-8 wks of their cycle at a given dose, say 500mg wk, and then in the 8th wk bump this dose to say 800. This should, if I am correct, cause the body to stimulate AR upregulation once again as it will be seen not as homeostasis but heightened hormonal levels.

Secondly, I consider SHBG and it's control. SHBG upregulates on a cycle thus affecting the amount of bio-available test and affecting gains. My thinking here is to, in a longer cycle, leave all SHGB controlling components out of my cycle until the 8th wk or so when SHGB level have risen significantly. At this point I will throw in an agent that has SHGB inhibiting properties, such as Proviron , Winstrol , Masteron , or basically any DHT based steroid . This should hopefully inhibit my SHBG to a level allowing continued growth.

Hopefully between these two efforts I will allow myself to continue to show gains on my next summer cycle of 16 wks throughout the regimen. Anyhow that's what I have been thinking. And I will put it to practical use this summer.

[musclestack]

Don't know if this is off-topic or not, but could someone name the compounds one could take to keep SHBG levels lowered?

[shortie]

Any DHT derived steroid will do the

[Mesomorphyl]

why is your eq higher than your test? shouldnt test always be higher?

Not for me this time around. I think test a base could be viewed as just replacing natural levels of it while on other anabolics that shut down your natural levels. Like 200-250mg of cyp or enanthate per week as a replacement dose.

Everyone wanting to gain 5 lbs per week for 16 weeks is ludicrist. That would translate into 80 pounds. Just reading this stuff has made me think a bit about gains... OK, first I notice that after a longer cycle there are a few points where gains rize and fall. Example gains in the 6 week fall off around 9-10 weeks but then again at 12-16 another growth spurt. This may or may not have a thing to do with dht derived compounds added to the cycle. But I will say when I have gained big you can loose alot, but I found (for me mind you) that your body gets use to the mass if you are on longer; hemostasis. To add to that, at least your body will be in a non-catabolic state to get use to the newly acquired mass... even if you are not gaining per se.

[MASTER]

I personally like to do a 12 week bulker ( 2 injectables, oral kickstart, oral hardener at the end eg halo), with a 6 week primo bridge, then run a 12 week cutter (2 or 3 injectables and var). Hcg is run throughout and pct is extended to 8 weeks.
Example last cycle i did
Sust 1-6 1000mg e/w, 7-12 1250mg
Deca 1-12 800mg e/w
Drol 1-7 150mg ed
Halo - 8-12 50mg ed
nolva 20mg ed 1-30
Hcg 1-12 500ius e/w (2 shots a week), 13-18 1000ius e/w, 19-30 500ius e/w
13-19 primo depot 300mg e/w
13-19 proviron 50mg ed
19-30 tren 75mg ed
19-30 eq 800mg e/w
19-30 sust 1000mg e/w
25-30 var 60mg ed
adex .5 mg e/d 19-30

[Pinnacle]

Nice shortie!!

That theory might work,in regards to the 8 week mark.It appears lower doses of Test don't raise SHBG levels that much early in cycles.It's when you are running a gram or more is when SHBG levels spike quickly in a cycle.
Nice Hypothesis ....I see you're paying attention!!


~Pinnacle~

[MASTER]

Hopefully this thread will stimulate/generate some intellectual conversation.Something this board is in dire need of.
I'll start things off with my thoughts/theory/approach.

I'm a advocate of high dose cycles.Many might disagree with that approach.But that's what works best for ME. True,the human body does appear to get a tolerance to anabolics over time(as with any drug for that matter).But,if you don't run your cycles in close succession,there won't be a great need to ramp your doses up to quickly.I've also found that on high dose cycles,your receptors seems to down regulate rather quickly.Also,it's apparent to me SHBG levels elevate quickly on higher doses.Once that happens,gains cease.In my last two cycles I observed this.Particularly on my current cycle.After stopping masteron at week 8 my gains halted.That sends a red flag up saying my SHBG levels rose sharply.(As we know masteron,winny and a few other drugs are known to decrease SHBG levels).So this observation lends credence to what research has shown us.
With that said.My new cycle theory will be that of esterless, or short ester gear.For short 6 week,burst type cycles(for putting on size)I'll take this approach as to reduce the risk of elevated SHBG levels while running high doses.I will also add some sort of DHT derivative(quick acting) drug to the mini cycles as well.This will also aid in reducing SHBG levels.Adding proviron or similar will help in controlling estrogen since we know that estrogen binds to the same SHBG as androgens,and when you lower SHBG levels(with a DHT type drug) you are also elevating bio-available estrogen.

~Pinnacle~

Yeh i def agree with u on the doses bro, but the doses i used to do are nothing compared to what u do, but i guess they wud porbs be similar by now if i hadnt gone 4eva natty.

[Smedman101]

Pinnacle, GREAT post man! I have read every word from each member so far and every body has great input.
I have a a good friend of mine that I wish would get on here.. hes 42 and has been on the juice since he was 26 he has alot of info for me that could help others....he "was" pro wrestler for WCW... back in the day. and he still a monster at 275lbs....
He tells that he would take as much his body would take. He claims that his best achivements came from HGH cycle kits he did 4, (not all at once) back in the day! With the aid of ass...And that was years ago!

Keep in mind, This is what he says was his secret....

I know for the past three years hes done noting but fina and eq...I guess its his way to maintain or cruise thru to keep his size.

[Pinnacle]

Here's some studies to ponder over for those interested in SHBG.

Lek 1992 Sep;38(9):879-86
[A laboratory test for the detection of androgen resistance using sex hormone-binding globulin]
Hampl R, Starka L, Snajderova M, Lachman M, Kalvachova B.

A simple laboratory test for disclosure of peripheral androgen insensitivity has been suggested. The test is based on determination of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) following single administration of testosterone preparation (Testoviron Depot, Schering, 2 mg/kg of body weight). The kinetics of SHBG response to exogenous testosterone was investigated first in a group of 5 healthy male volunteers. The highest highly significant decrease of SHBG level occurred 7th day after drug administration. The method of choice for SHBG determination is an immunoradiometric assay (IRMA). The test was used for a group of 15 children and young people suspected for androgen sensitivity disorder. In all cases, besides SHBG on days 0 and 7 testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and LH were measured, too. In three instances the response was negative: in the case of male Turner syndrome, with very low basal SHBG levels, in one case of confirmed diagnosis of testicular feminization and in the third case of suspected testicular feminization, which has not yet been concluded. In all other patients a significant decrease (in average to 62.8% of the basal level) was in agreement with clinical findings.


Endocr Regul 1993 Jun;27(2):65-70
Evaluation of SHBG test for disclosure of insensitivity to androgens.
Hampl R, Starka L, Kalvachova B, Lachman M, Snajderova M, Lisa L, Zapletalova J, Hill M.
Institute of Endocrinology, Praha, Czech Republic.

A laboratory test enabling to reveal and confirm the suspicion on the insensitivity to androgens was evaluated. The test consisted of determination of the decline in plasma level of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) on the 7th day after administration of a single dose of testosterone preparation (Testoviron Depot 100, Schering, 2 mg/kg body weight). The upper limit of percentual SHBG decline, below which the patients can be considered normal responders (i.e. subjects without insensitivity to androgens), obtained from the follow up of the time course of SHBG changes after Testoviron application to 6 healthy men, was established as 83.6%. The level of percentual SHBG decline, above which the patients were considered non-responders with impaired peripheral sensitivity to androgens was assessed from the imprecision of immunoradiometric determination of SHBG and amounted 91.9%. The test was used and evaluated in 26 patients with 46 XY karyotype, representing various cases of intersex, gonadal dysgenesis and male hypogonadism, out of which four subjects with clinically confirmed impaired peripheral sensitivity to androgens were discovered. The test however, appeared not to be reliable in cases of very low basal SHBG levels, i.e. below 15 nmol/l.

In another study(1) there was a clear dose response relation in decline of SHBG to testosterone enanthate . In the highest dose group (600mg/week test enanthate ) there was a 50% decline in SHBG after 16 weeks. In the 300mg/week group SHBG declined by 30%.

(1) Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.

Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.

Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. [email protected]

And more...


Sex hormone-binding globulin changes with androgen replacement.

Plymate SR, Leonard JM, Paulsen CA, Fariss BL, Karpas AE.

Since sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels are often elevated in sera of patients with testicular insufficiency, it is important to determine whether SHBG declines into the normal range and the extent of change in free testosterone (free T) after androgen administration. Five normal men and five patients with Klinefelter's syndrome were studied before and after the administration of testosterone enanthate (200 mg, im every 2 weeks). An additional five normal men and five patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) were treated with hCG (2000 U, three times a week). Three months after the administration of T or hCG, serum total and free T increased in both normal men and patients. Free T increased significantly in the Klinefelter's and HH patients from 94 +/- 20 and 14 +/- 5 pg/ml, respectively, to 271 +/- 50 and 276 +/- 41 pg/ml (P less than 0.01; P less than 0.001). The increase in the normal men treated with T or hCG was also significant (from 211 +/- 52 and 220 +/- 37 pg/ml to 390 +/- 83 and 330 +/- 90 pg/ml). SHBG fell in both the T-treated normal men (from 6.5 +/- 1.2 ng dihydrotestosterone bound/ml to 4.3 +/- 0.4; P less than 0.02) and the T-treated Klinefelter's patients (from 16.4 +/- 2 to 4.3 +/- 0.5; P less than 0.01). However, it was unchanged in the hCG-treated HH patients and rose in the hCG-treated normal men (from 6.6 +/- 0.7 to 8.6 +/- 1.0; P less than 0.05). This study demonstrates that treatment of hypogonadal men with T and hCG in the doses used increased free T levels above the basal levels for normal men. However, the effects of the increase in free T, as determined by a change in SHBG, were different depending upon the type of treatment.

[marcus300]

[QUOTE=Smedman101]He claims that his best achivements came from HGH cycle kits he did 4, (not all at once) back in the day! With the aid of ass...

Keep in mind, This is what he says was his secret....

i agree HGH is a wonderfull weapon for putting a touch of class and quality to a physique, i totaly changed when i started using it

[tough old man]

It's perfectly fine to disagree TOM.But I think you are in disagreement a little too early in the game since your experiment has only just begun.Personally I think you'll hit plateau's rather quickly running the same drugs constantly in the same cycles.
i know you are basing your cycle theory on that of DoggCrapps,but he has guys run short,or no ester Testosterone for the mini cycles.He doesn't advocate enanthate in short runs like that,and certainly wouldn't advocate EQ in a mini cycle as well.In a nut shell.He has guys run suspension for 6 weeks,and cruise for another 3 weeks or so an prop.That is the foundation of his cycles.He doesn't recommend using alot of drugs.He likes test only cycles for the most part.

Anyway,good luck on your experiment.Hope it works out well for ya.

~Pinnacle~

Pinnacle, Dante does avocate the use of enanthate as his number one steroid to use. He loves test with tren and test w/EQ. Then use Test prop during the cruise. I can post this for all interested. Just 3 months ago by way of personal emails he set me up with these cycles. I also have the complete cycle for pennies in word format if anyone would like to read it. It's only 404 pages long.

[tough old man]

why is your eq higher than your test? shouldnt test always be higher?

Testosterone is a high androgenic steroid where Eq is not. So because of my age, the less androgens, the less chance i have raising my blood pressure. Hell at my age high blood Pressure can be a killer. This I try to keep in check.

Example. Last cycle. Low test dose and high Eq dose. B/P stable at about mid 120's over mid to high 70's

This cycle 750 mgs of test...= my B/P around 140 /90....big dfference mate

[Pinnacle]

Pinnacle, Dante does avocate the use of enanthate as his number one steroid to use. He loves test with tren and test w/EQ. Then use Test prop during the cruise. I can post this for all interested. Just 3 months ago by way of personal emails he set me up with these cycles. I also have the complete cycle for pennies in word format if anyone would like to read it. It's only 404 pages long.

Interesting!I've only seen cycles that were posted by guys using his protocol.What I posted above is what I've seen written.I know he customizes every cycle for each individual,so I stand corrected in regards to your own customized cycle.

I've only read exerts from "cycle for pennies".I'd really like to see the whole thing if possible.


~Pinnacle~

[SPIKE]

This is way too informative of a thread to be all the way down here.


If some are just catching wind of this thread and dont wish to post due to the time it takes to read all the posts from 1 on, then really take the 5 minutes to skim over it. Tons of info here to change ones complete thoughts on cycling.



Bump for anymore informative info.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Guess I'll chime in. I'm 43, 5'8" at about 280 now and been gearing for 23 years. I don't think there is a cycle that I haven't tried. I tend to go with an instinctive approach. I listen to my body. The more you know about what each drug is composed of and what it's supposed to do, then the more you can make educated decisions along the way. I've had cycles where I've literally had like 12 different drugs(not at the same time) and rotated them instinctively. Mind you, I've been doing this many years and I know what works for me and what doesn't and for how long. I've done 3 grams of test a week for half a year, I've tried short cycles, stay of GH all year long, come off when I feel its time, run HCG year round. My medicine cabinet looks like a pharmacy shelf.

[goose]

[QUOTE=marcus300]over the years ive been on and off gear ive tried more or less every combination going, i know my own body and how it responds to gear, ive done short burst cycles at high levels of test, infact the late Paul Borreson told me to try it, and i must say they do work and i respond very well and built quaility mass,but they are not for everyone i am a big believer that when people use chemicals there is no set rule, people respond differently so there is no right or wrong you have to try it and see how your body reacts, also have to pick the right test for the job and other compounds to react correctly with each other for the short cycle burst,
ive also tried the long cycles with low test and high test, which i do love, but its very hard to get everything working correctly when your off, it takes so long to recover even with all the PCT compounds available,its a must you follow time on = time off for heavy long cycles, i use both methords personaly i will start a short heavy burst cycle then the next long heavy cycle or long low test.

Looks like your going to hit tren Suspension and test Suspension in a Spectacular manner Pinn.What a fantastic thread,a rare treat on this board.The six week cycle makes alot of sence for you,the science supports your ideas.The more advanced you are,the greater Understanding of biological science is needed to achieve our goals.The search takes us to the extent of the characteristics of each of the three extremes,endomorph,mesomorph,
and ectomorph.
I was taught the traditional method of cycles length.Cycle 12-14 weeks max,and take 3 months rest for your receptors to be at prime condition for anabolic and androgenic responce for your next cycle.I respond well to this length,I recover well in PCT,which allows me not to loose to much gains.I have a couple of favorite anabolics,that I have to run at least,every other cycle.These have to be run around 12 weeks,So this also has made me a firm
supporter of the 12-14 week cycle,for me.I have ran a couple of 6-8 week cycles and liked them because they allowed a reasonable recovery time,and allow quite a bit of time to make gains.Another reseason I like cycles shorter than 3 months is it enables me to take an aggressive approach on dosage,that would be risky running at a long cycle.I have good Judgment evaluating the potential of an anabolic on my body.My ideology is to find anabolics that respond to you in a safe manner,and hit it hard,like no 2moro.
You have to feel how far you can go,it`s a thin red line,that you have to find.
I have ran Var at 140mgs ED in a cycle,and can tell you my strength gains compared to King Kong,a film that we all must see soon.That`s why I am very confident I will reach 200mgs in LR3 in 6 months,I will use this only for PCT,drop one in the middle of the cycle at 100mgs.My aim is to use 200mgs only for PCT,an insurance policy on my cycles gain,another way to trick Gnrh during PCT.So the shorter the cycle,the higher dose Program you can execute.
marcus300 thanks for the Andriol help,thanks mate.I know you use to know paul well,from the same town as you know he was a specialist at cycles for peolpe that have reached their anabolic limit.He believed in taking one to two thousand milligrams of gear each day.The logic behind this is,he runs the cycles for thirty days, at the most, before your body realizes what happened.We was a believer that receptor sites up-regulate When you do about 5000 milligrams a week, your cells respond unbelievably.You like gain a pound a day.I will try a one month cycle in 06,and see what the results are like.


goose4..............

[SPIKE]

Guess I'll chime in. I'm 43, 5'8" at about 280 now and been gearing for 23 years. I don't think there is a cycle that I haven't tried. I tend to go with an instinctive approach. I listen to my body. The more you know about what each drug is composed of and what it's supposed to do, then the more you can make educated decisions along the way. I've had cycles where I've literally had like 12 different drugs(not at the same time) and rotated them instinctively. Mind you, I've been doing this many years and I know what works for me and what doesn't and for how long. I've done 3 grams of test a week for half a year, I've tried short cycles, stay of GH all year long, come off when I feel its time, run HCG year round. My medicine cabinet looks like a pharmacy shelf.

Good input and great stats.................So now let me ask you this. What has worked best for you????? You seemed to have tried everything and have been around the block. So what have you concluded to be the best route? For you of course..................

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Good input and great stats.................So now let me ask you this. What has worked best for you????? You seemed to have tried everything and have been around the block. So what have you concluded to be the best route? For you of course..................

I'm still a sucker for Sustanon 350 EOD, D-bol kickstart 40mgs for 4-6 weeks, Deca at 600 mgs a week, D-bol finish (on a 3 month cycle) for 4 weeks, I run proviron and nolva throughout, use HCG at 1 month and 2 month and at pct. PCT with nolva, clomid, HCG. I run GH 10 IU's daily year round.

[IBdmfkr]

i have a cycle diary which goes back over ten years

Feel like an idiot, and I'm now writing down my cycle history and What gains I can remember. Glad you posted that, never even thought to do this. Great post marcus. See when you're not being a flaming homosexual, you can have some great posts!

[IBdmfkr]

I'm still a sucker for Sustanon 350 EOD, D-bol kickstart 40mgs for 4-6 weeks, Deca at 600 mgs a week, D-bol finish (on a 3 month cycle) for 4 weeks, I run proviron and nolva throughout, use HCG at 1 month and 2 month and at pct. PCT with nolva, clomid, HCG. I run GH 10 IU's daily year round.

Is HCG necessary on your down time(cruising at 250mg/wk of Test)? Or do you just pick it back up when you up the dosages. Thx.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Is HCG necessary on your down time(cruising at 250mg/wk of Test)? Or do you just pick it back up when you up the dosages. Thx.

Good question. When I really hardcore competing in the 90's I was on alot. My endo had advised at the time to do HCG @2000 IU's 3x 4 days apart every 6 weeks. I never really cruised to be honest. I was on or I was off. Mind you I've had massive long cycles followed by 4 weeks off and a thumbs up blood test and I was right back on. Worked for me.

[IBdmfkr]

So you prefer 2000IU's 3x 4days apart over 500IU's E4D? Interesting. Any literature on this? thx.

[zircon]

I've done 4 x 2 weekers with various compounds, mostly prop and tren . Because I was a beginner I gained a lot from small doses...125mg prop and tren 50mg eod. Ridiculous I know...but I'm 15 lbs up now, only after 8 weeeks total cycling. I followed 2 on 4 off with a 10 day pct.

The only thing that ****ed me up was the acne. Might've been the tren, who knows. I'm not doing it again lol.

Next up is a 9 weeker prop 150mg eod...keep it simple. But the 2 weekers worked REALLY well...nto that much strength as a long cycle would produce I expect, but very gradual keepable gains. If you dont get acne, this imo is the way to go for recreational bb.

[Pinnacle]

Mind you I've had massive long cycles followed by 4 weeks off and a thumbs up blood test and I was right back on.

I'm sure everyone here would love to see an example cycle of what you ran.I know I would!!!

So if you wouldn't mind,could you post one?..THX

And did you switch up drugs totally cycle to cycle?Please elaborate as I find information like this intriguing.


~Pinnacle~

[IBdmfkr]

So you prefer 2000IU's 3x 4days apart over 500IU's E4D? Interesting. Any literature on this? thx.

Here's a good article.
http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=33&pageID=404

[marcus300]

Feel like an idiot, and I'm now writing down my cycle history and What gains I can remember. Glad you posted that, never even thought to do this. Great post marcus. See when you're not being a flaming homosexual, you can have some great posts!

first am not a homosexual
second didnt know you cared so much
looking back over my cycle history between heavy long cycles and short heavy cycles there seems to be a pattern, when i am on a long heavy cycle mixing different compounds i more or less gain alot of mass now when i come off and start pct and have a good time off (like we all should but alot dont) over the next 20 weeks i will drop some lbs usualy about half ive gained, even with all the different pct methords and all the supplements to aid the gains, more or less this happens, now am talking about the peak you are within the cycle and if you follow time on time off,at the end of time off the weight you are then,which without doubt this is the water weight you lose, must admit i love the feeling of being pumped and full with the heavy long cycles, BUT on the other side when ive done short cycles either with high dosages or low i still gain quality muscle but the difference is that after ive done time on time off process the weight stays the same,i dont lose anything,the body seems to get back to normal far easier with this methord, fair enough i dont gain the same amount of mass but your more or less the same pound for pound you have built weather you doing a long or short cycle, the end result is the same,
now you can obtain different results in either of these cycles with knowing which compounds to add or stop within the cycles that comes with knowing how your body will react to different anabolic /androgenic compounds and experience of past cycles,
i think the best advice would be is keep a diary of all the cycles you do, watch how you react with upping the mg of the main test,watch what happens when you stay the same mg and log all the results,switch compounds in both methrods do short cycles and long, then you will now more or less get an idea how you can obtain the results you are after, one more for me is you never stop learning how your body reacts when you start getting older,its a constant learning process, also diet is a major part of either way you cycle!
there is no alternative to experience when playing with chemicals and your body..

[NYC BIG MIKE]

So you prefer 2000IU's 3x 4days apart over 500IU's E4D? Interesting. Any literature on this? thx.

Let me first note that I am very well aware of many different theories regarding HCG applications. Having said that, I am old school, I do what works via trial and error experience and more importantly what my endo tells me regarding blood work up. If it didnt' work, then I'd try another angle. Literature on it, I'm sure the old steroid bible had this approach and I'll post a c and p from steroid.com as well. The key is doing what works for you. I have even asked my endo in the past, "should I go to the newer 500 IU approach" and I got a reply that was typically old school as well..."if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Here is the c and p...........ohyeah, my endo had many, many bodybuilders including one MR. O. So it's not like I was his guinea pig.


HCG, is not an anabolic /an-drogenic steroid but a natural protein hormone which develops in the placenta of a pregnant woman. HCG is manufac-tured from the urine of pregnant women since it is excreted in un-changed form from the blood via the woman's urine, passing through the kidneys. The commercially available HCG is sold as a dry substance and can be used both in men and women. in women injectable HCG allows for ovulation since it influences the last stages of the development of the ovum, thus stimulating ovulation. In a man HCG stimulates pro-duction of androgenic hormones (testosterone ). For this reason athletes use injectable HCG to increase the testosterone produc-tion. HCG is often used in combination with anabolic/androgenic steroids during or after treatment. Since the body usually needs a certain amount of time to get its testoster-one production going again, the athlete, after discontinuing ste-roid compounds, experiences a difficult transition phase which often goes hand in hand with a considerable loss in both strength and muscle mass. Administering HCG directly after steroid treat-ment helps to reduce this condition because HCG increases the testosterone production in the testes very quickly and reliably. In the event of testicular atrophy caused by mega doses and very long periods of usage, HCG also helps to quickly bring the testes back to their original condition (size). Since occasional injections of HCG during steroid intake can avoid a testicular atrophy, many athletes use HCG for two to three weeks in the middle of their steroid treatment. It is often observed that during this time the athlete makes his best progress with respect to gains in both strength and muscle mass. Those who are on the juice all year round, who might suffer psychological consequences or who would perhaps risk the breakup of a relationship because of this should consider this drawback when taking HCG in regular in-tervals. A reduced libido and spermatogenesis due to steroids, in most cases, can be successfully cured by treatment with HCG.

Most athletes, however, use HCG at the end of a treatment in order to avoid a "crash," that is, to achieve the best possible transition into "natural training." A precondition, however, is that the steroid intake or dosage be reduced slowly and evenly before taking HCG. Although HCG causes a quick and significant increase of the endogenic plasma- testosterone level, unfortunately it is not a perfect remedy to prevent the loss of strength and mass at the end of a steroid treatment. Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it does not help in re-estab-lishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a-result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production. Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a re-adjustment period. This is merely delayed by the HCG use." For this reason experienced athletes often take Clomid and Clenbuterol following HCG intake or they immediately begin an-other steroid treatment. Some take HCG merely to get off the "steroids" for at least two to three weeks.

HCG package insert states clearly that HCG "has no known effect of fat mobilization, appetite or sense of hunger, or body fat distribution." It further states, "HCG has not been demonstrated to be effective adjunctive therapy in the treatment of obesity, it does not increase fat losses beyond that resulting from caloric restriction. 6000 I.U. of HCG in a single injection resulted in elevated testosterone levels for six days after the injection. At a dosage of 1500 I.U. the pharmatestosterone level increases by 250-300% (2.5-3fold) com-pared to the initial value. The athlete should inject one HCG ampule every 5 days. Since the testosterone level remains considerably elevated for several days, it is unnecessary to inject HCG more than once every 5 days. The effective dosage for ath-letes is usually 2000-5000 I.U. per injection and should-as al-ready mentioned-be injected every 5 days. HCG should only be taken for a few weeks. If HCG is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later HCG intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function.

HCG can in part cause side effects similar to those of injectable testosterone. A higher testosterone production also goes hand in hand with an elevated estrogen level which could result in gynecomastia . This could manifest itself in a temporary growth of breasts or reinforce already existing breast growth in men. Farsighted athletes thus combine HCG with an antiestrogen. Male athletes also report more frequent erections and an increased sexual desire. In high doses it can cause acne vulgaris and the storing of minerals and water. The last point must especially be observed since the water retention which is possible through the use of HCG could give the muscle system a puffy and watery appear-ance. Athletes who have already increased their endogenous test-osterone level by taking Clomid and intend subsequently to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia, tendency toward fat de-posits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens. In very young ath-letes HCG, like anabolic steroids , can cause an early stunting of growth since it prematurely closes the epiphysial growth plates. Mood swings and high blood pressure can also be attributed to the intake of HCG.

HCG's form of administration is also unusual. The substance choriongonadotropin is a white powdery freeze-dried substance which is usually used as a compress. Each package, for each HCG ampule, includes another ampule with an injection solution containing isotonic sodium chloride. This liq-uid, after both ampules have been opened in a sterile manner, is injected into the HCG ampule and mixed with the dried substance. The solution is then ready for use and should be injected intra-muscularly. If only part of the substance is injected the residual solution should be stored in the refrigerator. It is not necessary to store the unmixed HCG in the refrigerator; however, it should be kept out of light and below a temperature of 25* C.

[IBdmfkr]

first am not a homosexual

Not to trash your thread Pinn. but I have sources to back my claims.

Page 3 says it all. Don't be ashamed marcus.

Training partner asked to give me !!- BJ -!!

Btw, great stuff NYMike and thanks for the insight Marcus, it's good to hear from you guys that have tried so many different approaches. Nice thread.

[marcus300]

Not to trash your thread Pinn. but I have sources to back my claims.

Page 3 says it all. Don't be ashamed marcus.

Training partner asked to give me !!- BJ -!!

Btw, great stuff NYMike and thanks for the insight Marcus, it's good to hear from you guys that have tried so many different approaches. Nice thread.

hahahahaha good one,
the whole thread was a joke, i take it you didnt get the PM? it was started because there wasnt anything usefull being posted, and i was trying to get people going with some daft discussion, its the english sense of humour..
its was all a joke,

now this thread is the best ive ever seen, more people need to tell us all their experiences, lets keep this going and people will learn alot from this

[goose]

So Pinnacle; could you give an example of a 6 week cycle to bulk,using your
Principles and how will you incorporate DHT derived anabolic ? Is your idea running a small dose,for example winny at 25mgs for the whole cycle.

goose4...........

[Pinnacle]

So Pinnacle; could you give an example of a 6 week cycle to bulk,using your
Principles and how will you incorporate DHT derived anabolic ? Is your idea running a small dose,for example winny at 25mgs for the whole cycle.

goose4...........

Heres a few I've been thinking about recently.

1) Week 1-6 Test suspension/Tren Suspension/20 mgs Winny/Aromasin /Slin

2)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Masteron (400mgs)/Aromasin/Slin

3)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Halo(40 mgs)/Aromasin/Slin

4)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/20 mg winny/Aromasin/Slin

5)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Drol(200 mgs)/Tren Suspension/Aromasin/Slin

I can easily add esterless EQ,or Deca into cycles as well.

Also,LR3 IGF-1 most certainly is an option.


Just some idle thoughts....


~Pinnacle~

[goalseeker]

again.....Awesome thread.....

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I'm sure everyone here would love to see an example cycle of what you ran.I know I would!!!

So if you wouldn't mind,could you post one?..THX

And did you switch up drugs totally cycle to cycle?Please elaborate as I find information like this intriguing.




~Pinnacle~

Pinn,
This is a cycle I did before a really big show in 1995, it was a 26 week cycle:


Dianabol 40 mgs Week 1-4/18-22
Sustanon 250 - 2 Gram week / Wk 1-22
Deca - 800 mg week / Wk 1-20
EQ 800 mg week / Wk 1-26
Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22
HGH 8 iu Day / Wk 1-26
T-3 80 mcg day / Week 22-26
IGF1 - 40 mcg day / Week 18-26
Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22
Masteron 300 mg Week/wk 18-26
Prop 100 mg day / Wk 22-26
Winny 50 mg day / Wk 22-26
DNP 250 day / Weeks 25-26
HCG As needed throughout the cycle
Nolva 20 mgs a day/Weeks 1-26
Proviron 50 mgs a day/weeks 1-26

PCT
HCG, Clomid, Nolva

[marcus300]

Pinn,
This is a cycle I did before a really big show in 1995, it was a 26 week cycle:


Dianabol 40 mgs Week 1-4/18-22
Sustanon 250 - 2 Gram week / Wk 1-22
Deca - 800 mg week / Wk 1-20
EQ 800 mg week / Wk 1-26
Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22
HGH 8 iu Day / Wk 1-26
T-3 80 mcg day / Week 22-26
IGF1 - 40 mcg day / Week 18-26
Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22
Masteron 300 mg Week/wk 18-26
Prop 100 mg day / Wk 22-26
Winny 50 mg day / Wk 22-26
DNP 250 day / Weeks 25-26
HCG As needed throughout the cycle
Nolva 20 mgs a day/Weeks 1-26
Proviron 50 mgs a day/weeks 1-26

PCT
HCG, Clomid, Nolva

NYC MIKE. what were your results from this course? thanx

[SPIKE]

[QUOTE=goose4]

What a fantastic thread,a rare treat on this board.

Amen

[NYC BIG MIKE]

NYC MIKE. what were your results from this course? thanx

I did really well in my show. I was 232 (started 268) rock hard on stage but let me tell you, I was totally ok having dealt with all the demons of carb depletion and excessive androgens and what not, but what totally KICKED MY ASS and I will never, ever do again was the damn DNP .

[Juicy Sauce]

Very good thread!
just like to add.. it seems like most of the gains in a cycle are in the first 6 weeks. but when i start a cycle i dont want to stop that soon. long cycles help the body retain gains but they are harder to recover from. from my exp, mid-length cycles of 10-12 are very good. gain some good beef and still bounce back pretty quick.

but i agree that changing up cycle length, compounds used, workouts and even diet is the only way to keep the body guessing and progressing!
JS

[marcus300]

Pinn/nyc big mike,

Have any of you used testosterone undecanote on a short cycle??
ive had unbelieveable gains with this test, everytime ive used it ive had results, its a good addition to any short cycle, what are you thoughts and experiences with this drug?