Smallest effective dosage

**BOB89** · 12-11-2009, 03:26 AM

I also need to add that I had to go back on my blood pressure meds about 2 weeks from stopping them as I started having headaches and upon checking was sky high again.

My BF% got as low as 13% about 4 weeks after starting the higher dosage but then went up again to 17% about 2 months later. Cleaned up the diet even more and I am now at 15%. based on this and the acne I suspect a high E2 reading on my blood work.

Since Feb I have added 200 lbs to my deadlift, almost 100 to my bench and almost 150 to my squat. Take in account I have not focused on strength building prior to this time. So alot of those gains were NOOB gains.

I also appear to be one of the lucky ones as even with the low test scores of my old dosage and even before I started TRT up to now(and the possible high E2) I have had no sexual dysfunction.

**BOB89** · 12-18-2009, 07:35 PM

Went to the Dr today, and the appointment was messed up, they had 3 I had 330 so I got skipped and could either wait several hours or reshedule. So late Jan I go back. I did get my blood work which was were I expected it.

Estradiol 59 (10-52
Test 946 (241-827)
T4 6.1 (4.5-12.0)
Thyroxine (T4) Free 1.31 (.89-1.76)

everything else was in range but the E2 and test, as far as cholesterols and such. Which I figured was high. Talked to the nurse about it real quick, should be addressed in Jan. Til then I'll just take a little more out of my dose.

**zaggahamma** · 12-18-2009, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by BOB89

Went to the Dr today, and the appointment was messed up, they had 3 I had 330 so I got skipped and could either wait several hours or reshedule. So late Jan I go back. I did get my blood work which was were I expected it.

Estradiol 59 (10-52
Test 946 (241-827)
T4 6.1 (4.5-12.0)
Thyroxine (T4) Free 1.31 (.89-1.76)

everything else was in range but the E2 and test, as far as cholesterols and such. Which I figured was high. Talked to the nurse about it real quick, should be addressed in Jan. Til then I'll just take a little more out of my dose.

i dont consider that test level high...some ranges go up to 1200..refresh my mind...wut if any arimidex are you taking...seems a little dose of that will get your test ration right where you want it

**BOB89** · 12-19-2009, 12:36 AM

right now I'm not on any AI. that test was done on a dose of 100mg every 5 days and was done the day of my injection.

He was shooting for a 850 or so last time I talked to him. so its not high as so much as out of range for the given range. I'm not sweating the T result, but I do think I need to drop the E2 a hair.

I feel good on this dose and don't want to drop much lower and I hope he goes with an AI instead of reccomending a lower T dosage.

**zaggahamma** · 12-19-2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by BOB89

right now I'm not on any AI. that test was done on a dose of 100mg every 5 days and was done the day of my injection.

He was shooting for a 850 or so last time I talked to him. so its not high as so much as out of range for the given range. I'm not sweating the T result, but I do think I need to drop the E2 a hair.

I feel good on this dose and don't want to drop much lower and I hope he goes with an AI instead of reccomending a lower T dosage.

i'm glad u mentioned how u feel on that dose and these levels...i was gonna ask...thats good....i like that protocol...even if the doc decides to slip your dose back a bit and not add arimidex ...go at it with open arms...zona dave is having good results from lowering both his test to 80mg ew (shot twice a week....similarly to your every 5 days) your test might just get in a sweet spot and you wont need an AI....i would prefer that if youre feeling good and no bloat or other estro sides
keep us posted

**BOB89** · 12-19-2009, 09:46 PM

For possible E2 sides I have the acne on my shoulders and a hint of moodness, alone with a little extra volume in my face. The moodness could be anything, but the acne is def test/E2 relates since it started when my dose was changed. The extra volume in my face is another one of those things that only I notice so it may be me looking for more than there actually is.

I would perfer to avoid the AI if possible, sticking with my less is better ideal. However my overall sense of well being is really solid on this dose and although I'm not seeing great body change I am getting stronger at the same weight.

I'm going to taper to 100 mg every 6 days instead of the every 5 days I have been running. Which may give me the drop in E2 I want without the AI but still not drop my Test levels out of my comfort zone. I also considered dropping to <13% bodyfat to see if that helps. A few simple diet changes should do it if I do that although I would be sacrificing some strength gains I think.

I am also going to discuss going to a low dose deca along with my test for some knee issues I'm having, but last I heard Deca was only available through compounding pharamcies(any know if this is still the case) Worst he can say is no and considering I'm actually using less than his script I hope he doesn't misunderstand my motivation

**zaggahamma** · 12-20-2009, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by BOB89

For possible E2 sides I have the acne on my shoulders and a hint of moodness, alone with a little extra volume in my face. The moodness could be anything, but the acne is def test/E2 relates since it started when my dose was changed. The extra volume in my face is another one of those things that only I notice so it may be me looking for more than there actually is.

I would perfer to avoid the AI if possible, sticking with my less is better ideal. However my overall sense of well being is really solid on this dose and although I'm not seeing great body change I am getting stronger at the same weight.

I'm going to taper to 100 mg every 6 days instead of the every 5 days I have been running. Which may give me the drop in E2 I want without the AI but still not drop my Test levels out of my comfort zone. I also considered dropping to <13% bodyfat to see if that helps. A few simple diet changes should do it if I do that although I would be sacrificing some strength gains I think.

I am also going to discuss going to a low dose deca along with my test for some knee issues I'm having, but last I heard Deca was only available through compounding pharamcies(any know if this is still the case) Worst he can say is no and considering I'm actually using less than his script I hope he doesn't misunderstand my motivation

i really think youre got a good game plan and so close to dialing in...thanks for keeping us updated and best of luck

**BOB89** · 12-21-2009, 05:18 AM

Thanks,

I've put some time in trying to figure out the best route. My doc has been decent and we get along well which I think is important as well. I should have an update around the end of Jan after my visit if nothing major happens til then.

My only other consideration is if he wants to lower my dosage and it doesn't feel right whether I should consider obtaining A-dex through other channels and continue my current dosage. Only time and more expereince will tell

**zaggahamma** · 12-21-2009, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by BOB89

Thanks,

I've put some time in trying to figure out the best route. My doc has been decent and we get along well which I think is important as well. I should have an update around the end of Jan after my visit if nothing major happens til then.

My only other consideration is if he wants to lower my dosage and it doesn't feel right whether I should consider obtaining A-dex through other channels and continue my current dosage. Only time and more expereince will tell

yes we ALL feel that way...we feel sooooooooo good when we're first on...just dont know if it builds up and become a lil problem trying to keep estro in ratio....its hard to tell yourself or inject less when youre feeling the best u have in years or for some ever

**ZonaDave** · 12-21-2009, 06:13 PM

i actually feel better on lower doses of T. i recently dropped my dose down from 120mg/week to 100mg/week and i'm feeling great so far. but, i'm guessing 100mg/week (50mg 2x/week) puts me around 800-900 on blood draw day.

the dose isn't important, it's where the dose puts your levels. i know guys who have to shoot 200mg/week to be in the 800-900 range. a buddy of mine is shooting 50mg 2x/week and his TT is 1200 so he's thinking about dropping it down to 40mg 2x/week.

**BOB89** · 12-29-2009, 02:36 AM

well its week four of 100mg every 5 days(I decided against going to 6days) and my acne is greatly improved. Some OTc products and some time in a tanning bed seems to have done the trick. I think I will stay at 5day intervals until my appointment. I decided to give the 5 day schedule some time to level off since my blood work was done during after only 2 doses at 5 days apart(from 3-4 days intervals)

I still feel like I have a fullness to my face I don't like, but the acne was the biggest issue and although not gone is to a toreable point.

Anyone know the half life of E2 in the body? I know this will be difficult to determine since T is constantly being converted.

**BOB89** · 01-30-2010, 02:02 AM

Went to the Dr today, he was happy with all my blood work and didn't seem overly concerned about the E2 reading being high. He thought I should stay at 100mg every 5 days for a few more weeks then get another blood test that would include E2 as well as free and bound test.

He thinks the ratio is more off than he would like leading to the acne. The acne is almost gone on this dose with just a pimple or two every couple of days showing up. The facial bloat is noticably reduced as well. Dr said that it may take some more time to find the sweet spot in my dosage and that he would like to avoid adding drugs to the treatment until we are closer.

He did mention using a antibotic as both treatment for the acne and somehow increasing the free test in my system(it stripes the protein from the test?), this was the first I have ever heard of this kind of off label usage, could someone fill me in?

**BOB89** · 03-04-2010, 12:04 AM

Quick update,

The doc decided after the visit to cancel my 5 week bloodwork and go head and put me on the antibotics. Some research yeilded that the antibotics(doxycycline)inhibits the protien synthesis in relation to the test, resulting in more free test. So far(4days) the acne is at a stand still, no change in mood or physical function. Suppose to stay on the anitbotic for 5 weeks then call for blood work. Also in postive news, he rewrote the way my script read, meaning I'm only paying $10 for each 10ml of cyp.

**Epic Ed** · 03-04-2010, 01:55 AM

Thanks for these updates. As a guy just starting out on TRT reading about your progress has been very informative.

I go in tomorrow for my 2nd injection and right now there is some discrepancy with the dose. I did 100mg last week and he wants to go with 50mg weekly if I choose to go the EW route instead of every other week. Based on all the info I've read here and other sites it looks like 50mg EW would be a very uncommonly low dose. I'm hoping to talk him into 100mg EW and a blood test at 3 months to evaluate progress. If he has a reason for picking 50mg each week I'd like to hear a well reason explanation as to why he arrived at that dose.

**BOB89** · 03-04-2010, 03:04 AM

50mg a week is a hair low, but just be honest with him about how you feel and go from there. Don't worry about the dose, just worry about how you feel. I didn't feel any better on my largest dose (300 every 10 days) then I do on my current (roughly 200 every 12) 50mg might work for you, it might not.

I think my relationship with my doc and the fact that he believes what I'm telling him is the truth is the reason I've been as lucky as I've been. I have little doubt my doc is looking at this as a long term problem that we can find a solution that works for the long run. I think we're closing in on the right lowest test dose and now we just need to find out if that negates the few sides I'm having or we need to add something else.

**Epic Ed** · 03-04-2010, 01:58 PM

I got it sorted out with the doc today. He has indicted .5cc, which is actually 100mg. My misunderstanding.

**zaggahamma** · 03-04-2010, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Epic Ed

I got it sorted out with the doc today. He has indicted .5cc, which is actually 100mg. My misunderstanding.

so u were taking 200 every 2 weeks before then?

**BOB89** · 03-04-2010, 11:25 PM

I think he was taking an injection a week, he thought they were 50mg when in reality they were .5 cc or 100mg.

**Epic Ed** · 03-05-2010, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by BOB89

I think he was taking an injection a week, he thought they were 50mg when in reality they were .5 cc or 100mg.

This.

I had my first shot last week. His initial plan was to have me doing 200mg every other week. I expressed a preference for 100mg EW and he had no problem that that schedule. I misunderstood his recommendation from the outset because he conveyed it in terms of cc's instead of mg's. We got all that cleared up today, though. He's a good guy to work with -- one who definitely believes in treating the patient and not the test scores.

**TheEuropean** · 03-05-2010, 07:10 AM

Quick question: Did any of u guys on TRT do a sperm-check after a while?
What I wanna know is: Is there a serious disturbance in sperm quality after lets say, 1year of 100mg/week?

**zaggahamma** · 03-05-2010, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by TheEuropean

Quick question: Did any of u guys on TRT do a sperm-check after a while?
What I wanna know is: Is there a serious disturbance in sperm quality after lets say, 1year of 100mg/week?

welcome bro...start your own thread and you will get answers there friend

**TheEuropean** · 03-05-2010, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

welcome bro...start your own thread and you will get answers there friend

Did that. Thnx man

**BOB89** · 04-05-2010, 09:02 PM

OK,

I'm about two weeks off the antibotics and still dosing 100mg every 5 days. The acne is gone, expect for a spot here and there which I've had all my life, but the nasty cystic stuff is off my shoulders and back. the first week off the antibotic I had some itchness in my nipples but its gone now.

I've put another 20lbs on my bench in the last 2 or so months so I'm still making gains. I have not had a BF% test this month but think its down a hair. I have gained some weight back as I was low at 208 during the antibotics. My general well being hasn't changed since I dropped the antibotics at all and I still feel good at this dose. I may call the doc and ask for some Bcomplex injectable just for giggles as I've been meaning to try it out.

**BOB89** · 04-20-2010, 10:56 PM

A quick update, I jumped on the B12 bandwagon about a week or so ago. Haven't really noticed any real difference at this point. Injecting around 7mcg every 3 days along with other B vitiams(its a complex)(don't rememeber dosage on them) But my schedule should be kicking my ass and its manageable so that may be enough.

I still have a spot or two of acne but its nothing a little time in the sun doesn't cure. And with summer coming I'll get enough of that just mowing my lawn. I'm still at 100mg every 5 days and feeling pretty good. My lifts continue to progress despite my hectic life. I'm not sure if I mentioned it but I switched to an upper lower body split and it seems to be working for me. I get the reps I need while still moving enough heavy weight to keep progressing. Bodyfat at last testing was 14.5 and weight at 212.

**zaggahamma** · 04-20-2010, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by BOB89

A quick update, I jumped on the B12 bandwagon about a week or so ago. Haven't really noticed any real difference at this point. Injecting around 7mcg every 3 days along with other B vitiams(its a complex)(don't rememeber dosage on them) But my schedule should be kicking my ass and its manageable so that may be enough.

I still have a spot or two of acne but its nothing a little time in the sun doesn't cure. And with summer coming I'll get enough of that just mowing my lawn. I'm still at 100mg every 5 days and feeling pretty good. My lifts continue to progress despite my hectic life. I'm not sure if I mentioned it but I switched to an upper lower body split and it seems to be working for me. I get the reps I need while still moving enough heavy weight to keep progressing. Bodyfat at last testing was 14.5 and weight at 212.

good work bob...never tried the b12 myself

**BOB89** · 04-21-2010, 02:52 AM

I talked to a dr friend about it before starting. He said go for it. Since I'm injecting anyway why not get it directly into my system since B12 doesn't digest well. Its cheap and easy and if it works great. If not I'm out basically nothing. I do have to inject between my normal T shots but really whats one more injection every 10 days.

**zaggahamma** · 04-21-2010, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by BOB89

I talked to a dr friend about it before starting. He said go for it. Since I'm injecting anyway why not get it directly into my system since B12 doesn't digest well. Its cheap and easy and if it works great. If not I'm out basically nothing. I do have to inject between my normal T shots but really whats one more injection every 10 days.

yes true

i have heard if low on b one will notice a difference...i may look into that as well

**BOB89** · 04-23-2010, 09:20 PM

I seriously doubt I was low as I have an enegery drink addiction and they're loaded with Bcomplex. But I figured what the hell, I've already got a needle in me and my body will get rid of an excess. I'll try it and if I don't feel a dif I'll drop it at the end of this 30ml.

**jeanlee411** · 04-24-2010, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by BOB89

I think I'm heading towards 100mg a week, right now I'm trying 150mg every two weeks. Last 2 days I start to lag alittle.

The doc is being really good about adjusting the dosages, he's leaving alot up to me as long as I tell him what I'm doing. I'm just not huge into taking more of anything than I need to get the desired results. So for now I'm trying to start low and go up. Hence the question.

i can say i know how you feel...i went through kind of the same thing make a long story short.150 mg week fits me great,feel great etc etc etc.you will get it right,but as the others have said most people feel better and are more stable just taking weekly injections..good luck

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**Vettester** · 04-24-2010, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by BOB89

I talked to a dr friend about it before starting. He said go for it. Since I'm injecting anyway why not get it directly into my system since B12 doesn't digest well. Its cheap and easy and if it works great. If not I'm out basically nothing. I do have to inject between my normal T shots but really whats one more injection every 10 days.

Why not just inject it with your "T"? It's a great way to make sure that there's no leftover "T" in the syringe.

Also, in a earlier post, I think you said you take 7mcg. Do you mean 700mcg? Most of it is 1000mcg/ml. I've been scooting along with 1ml/wk.

**BOB89** · 04-24-2010, 11:46 PM

I am injecting with my T on days that I'm scheduled. But since I inject T every 5 days so between I inject just the B.

So for example it would be

Monday 1/2 cc T, 1 1/2 ccs of B in the same shot

Weds or thurs 2 ccs of B complex

Saturday 1/2 cc T, 1 1/2 cc of B in same shot

I didn't think it was right when I typed it the first time I'll have to look at the bottle to get the correct dosage if I remember.

**tubs** · 04-25-2010, 01:18 PM

i only shoot 1cc of b12 once a week with my test cyp - is this way under dosed then?

.......need to go look it up

**zaggahamma** · 04-25-2010, 01:40 PM

is b12 hard to get or easily prescribed...i'm thinking i could/would benefit...i actually was denied donating blood last couple times due to iron...would b12 help is it similar to iron or is iron a different b12?

**tubs** · 04-25-2010, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

is b12 hard to get or easily prescribed...i'm thinking i could/would benefit...i actually was denied donating blood last couple times due to iron...would b12 help is it similar to iron or is iron a different b12?

iron is different, do you take a multi? It should have all the iron you need.

And my doc sells me the b12 I saw he had a case there so i just asked him for a bottle.

**Vettester** · 04-25-2010, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

is b12 hard to get or easily prescribed...i'm thinking i could/would benefit...i actually was denied donating blood last couple times due to iron...would b12 help is it similar to iron or is iron a different b12?

jpk, you can get it from Lion at AR-R .

Are you saying that you've got anemic conditions? If so, I'm on the other end of the spectrum, you can have some of mine.

I wish I would have started B12 along time ago. My doc tested me a few years ago, and my score was 291 (range of 200-910). Like everything else, this doc treats the score and not the patient.

**zaggahamma** · 04-25-2010, 08:28 PM

weirdest thing...i started donating shortly after going on trt because rbc's were a lil high and though was good to unload iron for men and i always felt good(therapeutic) from doing so and did for a year or 2 straight but the last 2 times (a few months ago) i was rejected due to low b/iron/whatever they check to see if you can...they told me to eat broccoli and watermelon and shit like that...my diet did weaken during these times but i didnt think enough to show up in bloodwork...and about if i'm taking a multi....i have them but i need to start everyday

**Vettester** · 04-25-2010, 10:09 PM

Yeah, from what I understand the multi-vitamin barely gets any B12 in the system. I'm sure there's plenty of vitamin mfg's that will say differently, but enough research has led me to believe otherwise. I was taking all of my vitamins when my doc tested my B12 and it was still showing on the low end.

Are you saying that your iron levels never returned back to normal? In cases of hemochromatosis, donating blood is the protocol to keep the iron in check. I'm a carrier for this disease with extremely elevated ferritin levels. It's normal for the iron to drop when donating, but it should come back up again after a month or two.

**BOB89** · 04-26-2010, 03:24 AM

I looked and the Bcomplex I have is oddly dosed.

it does show
5.0mcg of B12 but it is the only thing that there that shows a tenth of anything, the other b's in it are dosed in either mg or mcg not showing the tenths. I'm just not sure at this point. I may just go to straight b12. I'm not sure of the siginficance of the .0 on the b12 but think its odd. Since everythign else is dosed in whole numbers.

but it does contain

Nicotinamide(b3) which is suppose to be helpful with acne. I have noticed a drop of pop up zits since I started using the complex.

Probably just call the doc with a wtf question

**zaggahamma** · 04-26-2010, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

Yeah, from what I understand the multi-vitamin barely gets any B12 in the system. I'm sure there's plenty of vitamin mfg's that will say differently, but enough research has led me to believe otherwise. I was taking all of my vitamins when my doc tested my B12 and it was still showing on the low end.

Are you saying that your iron levels never returned back to normal? In cases of hemochromatosis, donating blood is the protocol to keep the iron in check. I'm a carrier for this disease with extremely elevated ferritin levels. It's normal for the iron to drop when donating, but it should come back up again after a month or two.

not for sure vette...havent had labs or tried to donate in some time...been feeling tired and ALWAYS...wanting to /AND napping

**BOB89** · 06-05-2010, 01:45 AM

Well I haven't updated in awhile cause honestly there hasn't been much to say. Still taking somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 or so mg every 10 days, sometimes a hair less sometimes a hair more. Got a BF% done on a 5 point test the ohter day and am down to 13.6%. This is about 4% down from a few months ago.

The acne is in check athough a spot pops up here and there on occasion. Its not something that is a problem though. I'm sure the drop in BF and the increased amount of sunlight I'm getting is helping. I'm still using the B-complex I had before and am planning on using it up before switching to straight B12 or at least a heavier dose of B12. Have no idea if that has also affected the acne I was fighting.

Everything else is running ship shape, have about 2 more months til blood work.