Smallest effective dosage

[zaggahamma]

good stuff bob...

about test/deca (GREAT TRT COMBO)

[BOB89]

Picked up my script this morning and got a 10ml vial again. Which would be good except it now for 2 months instead of 6 1ml a month.

[HALTEH]

good stuff bob...

about test/deca (GREAT TRT COMBO)

Yessir. I wanna do that combo after my Test-E/D-Bol cycle.

Deca and EQ are really catching my attention lately.

[zaggahamma]

Yessir. I wanna do that combo after my Test-E/D-Bol cycle.

Deca and EQ are really catching my attention lately.

not tren ??

[chopper999]

The question I have is what is the smallest dosage(weekly/bi-weekly) of test-c or Test-e that someone on here has had success with for HRT/TRT. I am intrested more in mood elavation and such then results in the gym or physical change(not that I'm discounting the postive effects of body change on mood)

G'day Bob - I am 47 years of age had blood test's done for low test levels and doc put me on 1 gel appilcation per day of Testogel which gives me 5mg of Testosterone in my blood system over 24 hours or I am absorbing 35mg of Testosterone per week - been on it 3 months had loads of more erections and wanting sex thoughts even went back to weight training and feeling better in the gym after 3.5 years lay off - My doc tells me I can take a max of 2 Testogel apps per day that would be 70 mg of Testosterone per week but to be honest I don't feel like I need the other appilcation not just yet anyway so to answer your question I am on the lowest dose of TRT / Testosterone you can get and I am having positve results - Cheers Chopper.

[BOB89]

Well thats a wrap this thread is over I guess


thanks for chiming in Chopper, I'm glad your having good results on that low of dose. I have to assume your side effect free as well. What are your bloodlevels at that dose?


In news related to me I'm down to just 2 weeks to my next appointment. I've been steady on teh .25 mg of adex a day. The acne is oddly still there but in greatly reduced and tolerable levels. I'm not sure how much is new on a day to day basis and how much is just spots that are slowly healing over the course of a week or so. The 3/4 erections seem to be a thing of the past as well(knock on wood(no pun intended)). So I'm going into this visit feeling pretty postive at the moment.

I'm going to do some more looking into prescription Deca as the joint benifits intrest me. I also had a freind reccomend IGF-1 as something to look at.

[zaggahamma]

Well thats a wrap this thread is over I guess


thanks for chiming in Chopper, I'm glad your having good results on that low of dose. I have to assume your side effect free as well. What are your bloodlevels at that dose?


In news related to me I'm down to just 2 weeks to my next appointment. I've been steady on teh .25 mg of adex a day. The acne is oddly still there but in greatly reduced and tolerable levels. I'm not sure how much is new on a day to day basis and how much is just spots that are slowly healing over the course of a week or so. The 3/4 erections seem to be a thing of the past as well(knock on wood(no pun intended)). So I'm going into this visit feeling pretty postive at the moment.

I'm going to do some more looking into prescription Deca as the joint benifits intrest me. I also had a freind reccomend IGF-1 as something to look at.

good to know bro..we'll all be looking for those results

[BOB89]

I just realized that this thread is now over 2 years old. I'm not sure if that speaks well of my situation and my doc's methods or poorly of them.

[zaggahamma]

I just realized that this thread is now over 2 years old. I'm not sure if that speaks well of my situation and my doc's methods or poorly of them.

of course you know i'll answer that

i think it obviously shows great patience and maturity....youre dealing with your body/health....its not like a quick pick on the lottery vs. filling out a card....one of the best individual posts documenting one individual's trt with very very good details...you're helping MANY with this post and it is appreciated by all

[BOB89]

JPKman,


thanks for stopping in as often as you do. Its nice to know that someone is willing to read all this.

Since I always tend to post more when I've got an appointment coming up for some reason....



I haven't had any new acne in the last two days. The bumps and spots I had are starting to fade although some of them take a couple of weeks to go away so I still have alot of little red spots on my sholders. I also got the bill for my last blood work today, and my insurance refused payment on some of it. Not sure why I'll call monday. I assume at this point that they will only pay for some many tests in a given time frame and I exceeded that.

I pulled heavy deads for the first time in a while Although I missed a +10PR I managed to get some good set work in. I don't know if I mentioned this before but I have been cutting my use of pre-workout stimulants down. My bloodpressure has been climbing over the past 6 months for no obvious reason. However today with the heavy deads looming I took a full load of pwo stims. probably shouldn't do that.


also sexual function appears to have normalized. I'm not the horny sex maniac I have been at some points during this process but physically I appear to be back to almost where i'd like to be.

[zaggahamma]

been a pleasure bro..

your thread is going to provide a lot of help to many ppl..

enjoy those deads...i'm gonna have to leave em be for a while myself

[BOB89]

Today was my Dr visit. I did bloodwork awhile back and I got to see the full results today. All blood values were with normal ranges for someone of my age. There was a liver enzyme that was slightly elavated but easily explained by the binge drinking I did a week prior to the testing around christmas.

The dr scripted me something for my crunchy knees and elbows and I'll share what it is when I remeber. He told me it was first developed for joint issues in race horses and then later approved by the FDA for humans. Sadly its not Deca . He said no again to Deca. Damn Doctor.

The blood pressure issues I've been fighting seem to have resolved themselves as I was back well with in normal ranges. Although I blame my BP and cholsteral meds for my stangation in the gym. He doesn't disagree but says they are a nessacary evil at this point in my life.

[zaggahamma]

really surprised you didnt post up actual numbers...hows the rest, the acne, libido, whats this stagnation in the gym talk? NO TRADITIONAL doctor is gonna write a rx for deca ....got to go to an AA Clinic for that.

[BOB89]

Well I left them at home and didn't have them handy. It was pages of blood work if your intrested I'll try to put some of them up. All of them are pretty boring to be honest. Mid range or slightly to the top end. LDL/HDL ratio was rock solid. There was also an inflamation marker(forgot the name) that is usually sky high for me but oddly enough was 0 this time. Not sure how that worked out.

Yea I know he won't script the deca , Its a long running joke between us.

We discussed my lifting in detail and I am sort of stagnated on my key lifts. Its an issue of recovery at this point I think as I just don't get the sleep I should. Hopefully it will work itself out with a less intense program(I think I discussed that before) and the better T/E ratio. The BP and Chlorestal meds can inhibit recovery as well. Poor recovery was one of the orginal symptoms I came in with and its a side effect of both those meds we've been aware of and monitored.

I guess stagnation may be a bit severe a statement since I've had to bounce programs a couple of times and fought a few minor injuries(pinched nerves and such). But my 3 lift total isn't moving much at all which is a little disheartening considering the effort I've put in, but understandable. I finished last year with a 1000 and ended decemeber with just a hair over 1100 which isn't where I'd like to be. I missed most of my goals for 2010 but since I based them on the progress of 2009 I can see why. I should have known that those kind of gains weren't substanable.


The acne is basically a non-issue at this point. A few new small pin head sized pimples but none of the hard cystic stuff I've been fighting. Nothing that I'm too upset with to be honest although I think a little time in a tanning bed would square the last of it away. Once the last of the old red scarring fades I should be be good to go.

As far as libido goes I seem to be back to normal and improving. Erections are solid and a full and seem to be at will.

I have the option to increase my dosage to 100 e4d which would raise me just a hair closer to top end. But are going to stay at .25 of adex a day either way. If I do it and don't like the feel I'll go back to 100 e5d.


I've been trying to find the time to work some LSD cardio back into my programs as much for my heart as for active recovery. Hopefully that will pay off with a BF% drop over the next couple months.


I went to the pharmacy today and they didn't have my new anti-crunchyness med(not sure what else to call it) so I have to call the Dr and see if its an insurance hold for approval or they forgot to call it in. He wasn't sure if my insurance would pick it up so they were suppose to check and if they didn't I could get a waiver or he would script something else. Needless to say I suggested Deca. He said no(again I guess personal jokes don't translate well to the interwebz)


Did I miss anything. I'll try to bring the paper work from my blood work and get it posted sunday


and my insurance and the BW company appear to have very dif numbers on as to what was paid and what wasn't. I got the insurance companies statement today finally and they show a larger payment than the labs showed they recieved. I'll get that squared before I pay my lab bill.

[BOB89]

OK blood work

Comp Metabolic Panel

Glucose 93 70-99
bun 21 10-26
creatinine .8 .4-1.5
sodium 137 136-145
Potassium 4.2 3.5-5
Chloride 104 98-110
Carbon Dioxide 29 20-30
Calcium 9.5 8.5-10.5
total protein 7.4 6-8.5
albumin 4.4 3-5.5
alkaline phosphatase 58 30-140
bilirubin .6 .2-1.2
SGOT 40 0-41
sgpt 71 0-45 HIGH
EGFR >60 no range



Lipids
Cholesterol 175 <200
Triglyerides 100 <150
HDL 42 >40
Cholesterol/HDL 4.17 5.00
LDL 113 <130
LDL/HDL 2.69
Phenotype normal
ldl/hdl risk ratio 1/2 national average is 3.3 I was 2.69



Hemotology profile
WBC 6.39 4.0-12.0
RBC 5.75 3.8-5.8
hemoglobin 17.2 12-18
hematocrit 50.7 37-53


PSA 1.04 0-4.0
Test 689 241-827
t4 6.2 4.5-12.0
t4 free 1.2 .89-1.76
tsh 1.963 .350-4.0


Glycohemoglobin A1C 5.4 4.3-6.1
meanign average blood glucose has been apr 90 over last 2-3 months



didn't bother with the everything but there are the highlights. If theres a number other than those you wnat to see I can post it.

[BOB89]

The script for my knees is actually going to be injections of synvisc which is actaully a synthetic fluid that acts a shock absorber in the knee. Insurance has to sign off on it though and that may take 2 weeks.

[zaggahamma]

r u the one with the doctor that doesnt test for estradiol?

bloodwork looks good...u think u got it dialed in(dose wise)?

in your previous post u mention gaining 100lbs from 1000 to 1100 or a lil over that....would i be guessing correctly or not if those weights are for total squat, deads, bench? if so going up a lil over 100lbs seems like decent progress for trt

[BOB89]

He does test that box just didn't get checked this last time. He admitted his fault.

The dose is as close as I'm going to get it at this point. I may take one more step up on the adex.

Yea its a standard three lift total.

[BOB89]

I've been having a sort of crazy thought in regards to my adex usage. I have been looking at the acne as soley being caused by excess E2 but what if its a product of some other mechanism. I'm considering dropping it completely for a period of time and see what happens. Considering my total test score was mid range I would have to converting test to E2 at a very high rate to still be high at .25mg of adex a day and I still have noticable bacne. Its changed from heavy cystic acne to what I have now but its still there. I see the Dr friday for my last synvisc injection and may dicuss it with him at that time.

[BeastintheSheets]

Why do you need adex if you are only using 100mg e5 days? lol Your estrogen is totally crashing which is probably why your joints hurt.

[BOB89]

At 100mg e4d I was over 100 on my e2. Hence the adex. We cut the test dose at the same time we started the adex. The the bacne was lessened w the increasing adex dose.(syarted at .25e3d) I'm pretty much decided to slowly decrease it dropping one dose a week for several weeks then another.


My knees are shot due to years of abuse and some damage that isn't quite bad enough for surgery at the moment. They also have arthritis that was diagnosed even prior to me starting try.

[sirupate]

r u the one with the doctor that doesnt test for estradiol?

bloodwork looks good...u think u got it dialed in(dose wise)?

in your previous post u mention gaining 100lbs from 1000 to 1100 or a lil over that....would i be guessing correctly or not if those weights are for total squat, deads, bench? if so going up a lil over 100lbs seems like decent progress for trt

Mine doesn't test for estradiol...need to ask him about that next visit. He has me starting at 200mg/2wks. Gonna go along with that until my first BW, then ask to go to EW dosing if my "crash" is as some of you describe in this (long) thread. I think the doctor will go along if that is what I want to do. Sure was cool to get that 10ml vial in the mail a few days ago.

Jeff

[BOB89]

Sirupate,

some people don't have the let down that i experience at 5-8 days after their shot. Just make sure that what your feeling is honest and not an effect of something you've read. I know that sometimes I think I might be effected by something I think is happening instead of actually whats going on if that makes sense.

Anyone have a good link to the effects of DHT conversion while on TRT?

I'm intrested in how much DHT might be resonpsible for an acne side effect? and how much DHT is normally converted from test as well as some sort of healthy ratio for DHT in the body if there is such info out there.

Also got my insurance mess cleared up with a single phone call a couple weeks ago. Insurance company had sent the lab two checks one prior to me recieving my bill and the other after. So I owe basically nothing instead of alot.

The synvisc so far is going well have one shot left on the right side.

[BOB89]

Well I'm into week 3 of .25 adex 6 of 7 days. So far no changes in anything. Will go one more week and cut again to 5 out of 7 days.

If no changes then I'll consider holding steady for bloodwork for just E2 after 6 weeks.


The synvisc seems to have done the trick so far in the right knee. Still a little achy but dr says thats probably tendonitis. Not sure about doing the left one yet. Going to give it some time and see what the results on the right are in a few months.

I'm going to go head and do the math for those of you who perfer weekly dosing info

Right now I'm on

140mg of Test C a week
1.50 mg of Adex a week(.25mg 6 out of 7 days)

or a almost a ratio of 100 to 1


03/14/11 (didn't figure there was point of bumping this for zit info)

Today I was able to determine what Bacne was fresh and what was old. I currently have just 2 active spots on my back. Both are located in the same exact spot on opposite shoulders. This was something that I've noticed over the last few years. I tend to get 2 spots on the exact but opposite sides at a time. Not sure if this means anything but its been fairly consistent and to say the least odd.


I'm also about to cut to 5 out of 7 days (or 1.25 mg) for my adex with the test dose still being 140 mg per week.

I think I'm going to pick up the offered script for viagra as insurance if I need it. Need to call insurance and see what doses I'm allowed, Its a perfered med but to be honest I have no idea how that works or whether they only pay for so many pills a month. I would hate to go pick it up and realize its super expensive(even though covered). I got some samples for cialas and Levitra awhile back but viagra is the one that insurance will actually pay for and having it sitting sure aint going to hurt anyone. And having the option to use each based on their strengths isn't a bad idea either.( Dr explained that each has dif half lives which could effect side effects and for lack of a better term "start time" with viagra being the shorter pre-flight and duration of effect and cialas taking longer to become effective and being live for up to 36 hours)

[BOB89]

Figured I'd take a minute and write down a few notes.

At this point I have moved to adex dosing of .25mg 2 out of every 3 days. So I take .25 two days in a row then skip a day. This seems to be working out for me as my bacne is down to one new spot this week. I have also been payign attention to morning wood and although its not always there in the morning I can't remeber a night or day that I haven't woken at least once with it whether it be from a nap or just a random time I happened to wake up during the night.

I did go head and pick up the viagra script and like I expected when I went to get it, it was $22 a pill. I told them to hold the script and called insurance. Insurance said WTF and made a call to the pharamcy and squared it away. Even they didn't know why it showed they won't pay as Viagra is their perfered drug and my coverage in the computer showed it was included. I'm allowed Up to 6 100mg pills a month for my co-pay. The insurance company said that I might be able to switch it to either cialas or levitra in the future as both are now $9 a pill even without insurance at Walmart pharmacy(perfered pharamcy)which is less than the viagra to start with. I haven't had any need for it yet but will just keep the pills I have around should I run into something. I may switch the script in a month or two if I can get the others since I like the idea of having up to 36 hours instead of around 4 to reap the rewards of the pill.

The pharmacy also went back to 1ml vials again for no known reason. They only gave me five with a refill order for 1 month.(2 months ago it was a 10ml with a 2 month refill)

I had attempted to re-up my script my phone as it had expired. I ended up going back to the pharamcy for 2 days as they told me they had sent the request to my dr and should have it taken care of the following day. On the second day I called the dr and their computer had been out of service and she called it in, for me to pick up that day. No one's fault just frustrating and a waste of time. Script was unchanged.

[zaggahamma]

Figured I'd take a minute and write down a few notes.

At this point I have moved to adex dosing of .25mg 2 out of every 3 days. So I take .25 two days in a row then skip a day. This seems to be working out for me as my bacne is down to one new spot this week. I have also been payign attention to morning wood and although its not always there in the morning I can't remeber a night or day that I haven't woken at least once with it whether it be from a nap or just a random time I happened to wake up during the night.

I did go head and pick up the viagra script and like I expected when I went to get it, it was $22 a pill. I told them to hold the script and called insurance. Insurance said WTF and made a call to the pharamcy and squared it away. Even they didn't know why it showed they won't pay as Viagra is their perfered drug and my coverage in the computer showed it was included. I'm allowed Up to 6 100mg pills a month for my co-pay. The insurance company said that I might be able to switch it to either cialas or levitra in the future as both are now $9 a pill even without insurance at Walmart pharmacy(perfered pharamcy)which is less than the viagra to start with. I haven't had any need for it yet but will just keep the pills I have around should I run into something. I may switch the script in a month or two if I can get the others since I like the idea of having up to 36 hours instead of around 4 to reap the rewards of the pill.

The pharmacy also went back to 1ml vials again for no known reason. They only gave me five with a refill order for 1 month.(2 months ago it was a 10ml with a 2 month refill)

I had attempted to re-up my script my phone as it had expired. I ended up going back to the pharamcy for 2 days as they told me they had sent the request to my dr and should have it taken care of the following day. On the second day I called the dr and their computer had been out of service and she called it in, for me to pick up that day. No one's fault just frustrating and a waste of time. Script was unchanged.

this is actually what i notice too and of course functioning at time of need....i blame this mostly on a very uneven/unroutine sleep pattern/duration....i sleep a few hours at a time...rarely i'll sleep more than 3 or 4 hours

[BOB89]

I tend to blame the lack of good sleep on alot of my lifting issues. It also becomes hard to determine whether the fogyness I feel sometimes is from Test/e2 issues or lack of sleep.

[BOB89]

Just a quick update although not much has changed. I've gone to two days of .25 adex followed by two days of none. And so far no major changes in anything. I'll drop the dose again in a few more weeks(1 in 3). The bacne is a non-issue at this point since not only had it pretty much dissappeared but also the sun is out and I've been doing a bunch of stuff around the house without a shirt. ANd it seems the sun makes a huge differnce in the bacne situation.

Today I had squats and I forgot how much that bar hurts on a sunburn.


Sexual performance is solid(pun intended) I played with the samples of the big three and honestly I'm not sure if any of them are worth the sinus pressure I get from them. I guess if I was actaully having issues then it would be. The viagra has the benifit though that the sinus pressure goes away quicker but the levitra it doesn't seem to as problematic. The cialas sucks for nasal pressure and for random painful wood for the whole 36 hours.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Bob: If the sun makes a huge difference, then you may want to consider looking at your vitamin D levels. Mine, and some others on the forum, were low and we had a great benefit from raising them up. In my case I didn't have any acne when my D was low, but I also have very low T and E2 (before I started HRT). Just a thought worth investigating. I know how something like bacne can destroy a great lat spread.

[BOB89]

I had never really thought of vitiman D being at issue with me. Maybe its something I should consider even without going through the bloodwork for it. I'll have to look a little deeper into it. A great lat spread, you really know how to motivate. Thanks for the feedback

[BOB89]

Ended up finding some D3 in my closet when digging for my ECA stack for deads today. 2000iu's down the hatch.

[BOB89]

Well its been about a month since I took my first dose of D3. Been consistent on daily dosing at 2000ius. I jumped off HRT dosing to cycle dosing (200 e3d) about three weeks ago.

I haven't had any bacne issues at all at this dose, whether it be the D3 or the bit of sun I've been getting. I have moved my adex dose back up to .25 2 out of every 3 days.

I probably won't post much about things for the next 8 weeks or since I'm off HRT dosing.

[BOB89]

Thought I'd take a minute to play catch up, more so to update my stats than anything. I came off a 400mg per week blast last week. I topped out at 234 at roughly 16% bf having started at 219 at 15%. I increased both bench and deadlift by 7.5%.

During the blast I had basically no side effects other than more frequent sleep issues(waking up on a frequent basis ect) I blame some of this on the increase in fluids I was taking in as it seemed everytime I got up I had to go to the bathroom. I have blood work coming up followed by my bi-annual Drs visit. My weight has already dropped a few lbs and I expect to drop a few more over the next few weeks.

At this point I'm back to 100 e4/5d but have completely dropped the adex I was taking. Since the only real reason I was taking it was to avoid the bacne I had and it is gone I don't see any reason to keep taking it til I get a decent E2 reading in my next blood work without it. I took very little adex during the blast taking maybe .25 every 3/4 days or less.

[BOB89]

Had to get my blood work in this week as its due on the day of my shot which happened to be Tuesday with the appoinment set for next Friday. Got to the lab and there was no order called in following my last appointment. This is the second time I've had this happen. So I got to call the Dr and got his nurse. She was good enough to go head and place the order although it was less than I've had done in the past. Basically it will just be 4 tests, Lipids/cholestral, test, e2, and liver values. About as bare bones as you can be.

I'm still at 100 e5d and feel honestly pretty good. I'm still not taking my adex and may not go back regardless of what my e2 is since I have no side effect symptoms at this point. My sleep has stablilzed for the most part and I haven't had any issues with rubber dick for quite some time. I'll re up my viagra script but only to have it sitting around in case something ugly rears its head. My lifts haven't really taken much of hit since I ended the cycle. My bench has dropped a little I feel but thats most likely due to switching programing to volume over high % singles. I haven't done a bodyfat for awhile but visually look a tad leaner than I was at the end of June. Weight is bouncing a little at 220-225 on a day to day basis with a few days a little lighter.

I'll post the DR appointment w the blood work results after I go

[BOB89]

Like I said bare bones blood work this time

Test/score/range
Cholesterol 161 <200
Triglycerides 122 <150
Cholesterol/HDL 4.88 5.00
HDL 33 >40 this was my only out of range score
LDL 104 <130
HDL/LDL 3.15 3.55
E2 49 <52
Test 794 241-827
liver values
SGOT 28 0-41
SGPT 40 0-45

No major changs for time being. I made sure the next blood work includes prolacton, LSH, FSH and such. Along with vitiamn levels such as D. Thats won't be til Feb. I'm debating on what to do with the Adex dosage since I'm high at 49 but I'm functioning fine and in range. Suggestions are welcome.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

LH and FSH are a waste to test if you are taking Test. They will be low. I would increase the Adex. 49 may be listed as in range, but it's a bad range. You really want that < 30.

Aside from low HDL, your lipids look really good!

[BOB89]

I know the LH and FSH aren't going to be normal but he wants them although I'm not sure why. I just wanted to make sure I got a complete hormone screen which those are in. I didn't say it quite the way I wanted to.

My test/E2 ratio is right at 16:1 and there are some that believe that a 20:1 to 30:1 ratio is about ideal. A-dex seems to cause a pretty big E2 drop for me so I'm hesitant to use it again. I fought rubber dick while on even small doses(.25 e3d) and now that seems to be gone. If I go back to it I may dose as light as .25 on day of shot or e4d. My other choice is go to 100mg e6d and see what that brings.

I'm open to suggests and thought on the topic.

[zaggahamma]

disagree with gnbm....as u stated....probs with getting too low and limp noodle syndrome....dont fix what aint broke....imo, the 20-30 range is not valid

[BOB89]

How do you feel about looking at it as a ratio?

[GotNoBlueMilk]

JP has always claimed a higher E2 value works better for him. He would know his body so his claim is valid. His personal experience makes him doubt the validity of a 20-30 range for others. My personal experience makes me doubt that anyone can function with an E2 of 40+. For me, anything about 28 sucks big time. I get all the symptoms of high E2 levels. But then, my baseline E2 was 4, so my body doesn't like high E2 at all. At an E2 of 4 I had no libido or erectile issues at all. My point with all of this is that JP and I seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum.

JP is definately right about "dont fix what aint broke", but it's hard to know what is partially broke unless you experiment and zone in on your optimal levels for all hormones. Based on what you have posted before, bacne seems to be your key indicator for your E2 tolerance, and libido seems to be your indicator for too low E2. So if you are happy with both, then you have nothing to fix.

I have read a lot about T to E2 ratios. I have also watched my ratio and how I feel at different ratios. Ratio, at least for me, is a poor metric. My baseline ratio was 100:1 (400 T and 4 E2). I felt like crap. Mostly because of the low E2, and some because my free T was at the bottom of the range. When I feel best, my ratio is about 40:1 (800 T and 20 E2). But again, if I am at 1000 T and 25 E2 I feel lousy. I get night sweats, neck tension headaches, irritable, and a bunch of other crappy symptoms. Even though it is still a ratio of 40:1, I feel terrible because T of 1000 for me is too high and my body doesn't like it. So the ratio may be something worth looking at, but in the end the individual numbers seem to mean more.