Krugerrs TRT Journey

[IncreaseMyT]

[Back In Black]

If you even bothered to read the other thread I posted, you will see Mr BB posted a table of a bunch of men on every 10 week injections. By 40th day some men were already below 300.

10 weeks is 70 days.

The half-life is 21 days, its just math not hard to figure out.

Sorry your having trouble with it.

'Some men' doesn't mean all. Of course not every therapy suits every man.

FFS, I'm aware of half lives so don't fvcking patronise me, board sponsor or not.

Nebido doesn't work that way (I already mentioned the size of the globule slowing release) but, if it makes you feel better here goes....

Wow, a marketing ploy you're probably right. At least we can trust you guys at IMt to keep us on the straight on narrow. I suppose that as some of your patients start threads here just to praise you then you must be the best.

Better?

I'm out

[IncreaseMyT]

Yea thanks for dropping the f bomb. I am patronizing you because you obviously have no idea how to suggest proper TRT and the labs prove it. Whether I am a board sponsor or not has nothing to do with. I think your injection schedule sucks.

He didn't miss a booster shot. Even if he did his levels were already where they are before he would have received it.

The injection schedule is marketing ploy to appeal to people that may not like injections. Sustanon tried the same thing.

So no its not better, its common fucking sense.

[Back In Black]

Yea thanks for dropping the f bomb. I am patronizing you because you obviously have no idea how to suggest proper TRT and the labs prove it. Whether I am a board sponsor or not has nothing to do with. I think your injection schedule sucks.

He didn't miss a booster shot. Even if he did his levels were already where they are before he would have received it.

The injection schedule is marketing ploy to appeal to people that may not like injections. Sustanon tried the same thing.

So no its not better, its common fucking sense.

Man I'm out. My labs are always good they suggest my nebido protocol work but you are ignoring that and the thousands of others that are all within range. Is it as good as test e or cyp for giving really stable levels? No, but it's all a lot of people get the opportunity to have. I have a small spike and am within range after 11 weeks. My other relevant bloods are all within range.

Your blanket comments that it's dangerous are wrong because there are so many it works for.

Kruger, you know where I am if you want to take advice from someone who actually uses this therapy successfully.

[IncreaseMyT]

Post them up then.........if there are so many labs out there on 10 week injection schedules that are bullets lets see them.

[Back In Black]

I'll get copies and post them no problem. I don't have anything to hide.

[IncreaseMyT]

Great. Make sure you test the day of your injection before you do it.

Thanks.

[hammerheart]

Just wanted to share this bw from one year ago, took at week 10

Total T: 850 ng/dl

SHBG .. 66 nmol/l

E2 (non sensitive) 18 pg/ml

Free T (calculated) 11.2 ng/dl


Being a slow release ester the undecanoate failed to reduced SHBG to an appreciable level, the result is normal tT, poor fT and, being it non-sensitive, a crushed E2.

[IncreaseMyT]

Which probably gave you as many symptoms as low T would.

What did the low E2 do to your lipids? To the liver?

If your TT was 850 in week 10 then you can assume using a 21 day half life that your TT levels were at least 3,000 plus at peak, far above eugonadal range.

So the huge swing in TT levels made your SHBG rebound crushing your free T and leaving no material for your body to make other crucial hormones.

So to both BB's, it doesn't matter which way you slice it, this eratic injection schedule is sub-optimal and MANY times downright dangerous.

[IncreaseMyT]

AND thats a conservative calculation. Realistically the half-life, based on the table above and comparison to a shorter ester cypionate , is much closer to 14 days.

Which means your TT was much closer to 5k at peak.

You can see some went to 1200 and back to 500 in the first 14 days.

Half-life's can change considerably based on body composition and other factors but not by 8 weeks.

[Mr.BB]

Thats a Aveed chart BTW, you know the 750mg aproved in US and that requires administration in office?

So as Aveed is only 75% of Nebido, 70 days (10 weeks) shots with Nebido will put you higher than in this graph.

IMT is completely wrong again, and making a fool of himself. He is even accepting this graph that only goes to 1200 ng/dl... Where's the 7000's????

Havent you been in school to learn statistics and graphs??? You need to look at the average where most men will fall, there is always some values that go low as in every study, if you show a graph of enanthate similarly there will be small % low.

Stop making a fool of yourself, do something usefull for yourself like creative internet marketing.

[IncreaseMyT]

Just because you don't understand half-lives or the difference from taking a shot with no T in your system vs taking a shot when you have developed steady state levels, does not make me a fool.

In pharmacokinetics, steady state refers to the situation where the overall intake of a drug is fairly in dynamic equilibrium with its elimination..

[IncreaseMyT]

See the difference between my chart and yours?

This is not hard to understand guys.

[hammerheart]

Which probably gave you as many symptoms as low T would.

What did the low E2 do to your lipids? To the liver?

If your TT was 850 in week 10 then you can assume using a 21 day half life that your TT levels were at least 3,000 plus at peak, far above eugonadal range.

So the huge swing in TT levels made your SHBG rebound crushing your free T and leaving no material for your body to make other crucial hormones.

So to both BB's, it doesn't matter which way you slice it, this eratic injection schedule is sub-optimal and MANY times downright dangerous.

No idea about lipids, the endo never cared to check them. Liver enzymes always OK. PSA however spiked to 7.32 ng/ml, but subsided in a couple of months. That's when I decided to get off nebido.

We will never know how much total T spiked, upper assay sensitivity is 1350, and yes lab reported >1350 on multiple occasions.

Yes that was very likely what caused TRT with nebido to fail.

[Mr.BB]

See the difference between my chart and yours?

This is not hard to understand guys.

Bet your chart is more like this:

[krugerr]

Firstly thanks all for the contributions. Discussions like this are the way to challenge new thinking and move forward with new techniques and protocols.

IMT I'm going to re read your posts and keep a much closer eye on blood levels from here on.

I think I'm going to say on Nebido for the time being. It's more convenient to inject less frequently. I'm going to request the booster and track my TT levels peaks.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[IncreaseMyT]

Bet your chart is more like this:

Nope your not accounting for the initial climb, which is apparently the part you do not understand.

OP I never suggested coming off Nebido, merely asking them to change your injection schedule. Very simple solution to a problem you have based on labs.

I am out gotta go to this chic's B day party. To the BB's have fun defending the worst injection schedule in the history of testosterone replacement therapy.

[krugerr]

Nope your not accounting for the initial climb, which is apparently the part you do not understand. OP I never suggested coming off Nebido, merely asking them to change your injection schedule. Very simple solution to a problem you have based on labs. I am out gotta go to this chic's B day party. To the BB's have fun defending the worst injection schedule in the history of testosterone replacement therapy.

Apologies. I meant 10-12 week protocol.

Enjoy that Par-tay!

Sent from my iPhone using App

[krugerr]

Afternoon All.
Doctors appt is next tuesday. So will have more information soon!

Earlier on in this thread Kel mentioned introducing Fish Oils. Can anyone (Or Kel) advise which reading prompted that response, and why?

thanks!

[NACH3]

hahaha all the evidence I need is in this thread....... Look at the labs!!!! This thread is on par with everything I said in the last thread.

Im out do whatever you want, just post labs every now and then so I can have a chuckle.



IMT < ------- most knowledgable TRT clinic IN THE WORLD.

He's not had his booster shot which obviously wrecked havoc on his levels being how far past the wk 6 mark was -
Like I've said and BIB as well... They're are many using this protocol... Though it may swing a tad low in the beginning once it's at its 'steady State' I've seen guys' bw after 12 wks still @ about 700 TT - not bad at all for a trough let alone an extended trough at that... Just my .02

[hammerheart]

Afternoon All.
Doctors appt is next tuesday. So will have more information soon!

Earlier on in this thread Kel mentioned introducing Fish Oils. Can anyone (Or Kel) advise which reading prompted that response, and why?

thanks!

According to research and various health organizations, an intake of EPA+DHA found in fish oil (which are essential nutrients btw) of at least 1g can help with CV health and 2-4g can lower cholesterol, and yours is already borderline. Of course you should also look into avoid dipping your T levels as it will negatively impact lipid profile.

[IncreaseMyT]

He's not had his booster shot which obviously wrecked havoc on his levels being how far past the wk 6 mark was -
Like I've said and BIB as well... They're are many using this protocol... Though it may swing a tad low in the beginning once it's at its 'steady State' I've seen guys' bw after 12 wks still @ about 700 TT - not bad at all for a trough let alone an extended trough at that... Just my .02

It just doesn't work Nach, if levels are not dropping too low on a 10 week injection schedule then they are going too high.

You have to dose ester based testosterone according to the half life or you cannot achieve steady state.

Just looking out for you guys.

[krugerr]

He's not had his booster shot which obviously wrecked havoc on his levels being how far past the wk 6 mark was -
Like I've said and BIB as well... They're are many using this protocol... Though it may swing a tad low in the beginning once it's at its 'steady State' I've seen guys' bw after 12 wks still @ about 700 TT - not bad at all for a trough let alone an extended trough at that... Just my .02

Id rather be at a trough of 700 than my current 200, thats for sure! :P

According to research and various health organizations, an intake of EPA+DHA found in fish oil (which are essential nutrients btw) of at least 1g can help with CV health and 2-4g can lower cholesterol, and yours is already borderline. Of course you should also look into avoid dipping your T levels as it will negatively impact lipid profile.

Fantastic mate, thanks. I'll start dosing.

It just doesn't work Nach, if levels are not dropping too low on a 10 week injection schedule then they are going too high.

You have to dose ester based testosterone according to the half life or you cannot achieve steady state.

Just looking out for you guys.

IMT - I do see your point, the levels would have to be very high to create a trough of 700. But I think this comes down to half-life timings. Depending where you read you get very different results. Ive seen a lot a data suggesting that Nebido/Aveed (Test Undecoanate) is 70-90 days half life. If that were the case, then peak levels wouldnt have to be that high to account for the 'high' trough.

[IncreaseMyT]

Ive seen a lot a data suggesting that Nebido/Aveed (Test Undecoanate) is 70-90 days half life. If that were the case, then peak levels wouldnt have to be that high to account for the 'high' trough.

Thats inaccurate information. Just look at the chart Mr BB posted of men on it, it is obvious the half-life is 2-3 weeks.

Remember for years people thought test cyp was a 14 day ester. When its actually 5 or 6 days.

[krugerr]

Elimination
Testosterone undergoes extensive hepatic and extrahepatic metabolism. After the administration of radio-labelled testosterone, about 90% of the radioactivity appears in the urine as glucuronic and sulphuric acid conjugates and 6% appears in the faeces after undergoing enterohepatic circulation. Urinary medicinal products include androsterone and etiocholanolone. Following intramuscular administration of this depot formulation the release rate is characterised by a half life of 90±40 days.

Source: https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/15661

In order to better establish (von Eckardstein and Nieschlag 2002) suitable injection intervals for TU, 7 hypogonadal men received injections at gradually increasing intervals between the 5th and 10th injection (starting with 6-weeks injection interval) and from then on every 12-weeks. Steady state kinetics were assessed after the 13th injection. Cmax was 32.0 ± 11.7 nmol/L and half-life was 70.2 ± 21.1 days

Source: Testosterone depot injection in male hypogonadism: a critical appraisal

[krugerr]

Thats inaccurate information. Just look at the chart Mr BB posted of men on it, it is obvious the half-life is 2-3 weeks.

Remember for years people thought test cyp was a 14 day ester. When its actually 5 or 6 days.

You can see why there is confusion surrounding this though. If websites like the one I have sourced are suggesting very long half lives, as well as the manufacturer. Its no wonder that most use an injection protocol that would reflect this. (70 days being 10 weekly, 91 days being 13 weeks.)

[IncreaseMyT]

Kruger it doesn't matter what that text says. I can show you info right now that says testosterone cypionate is a 14 day half-life. That doesn't mean its true.

Just look at the chart in this post. People were well under 500, more than half, by day 14.

[IncreaseMyT]

You can see why there is confusion surrounding this though. If websites like the one I have sourced are suggesting very long half lives, as well as the manufacturer. Its no wonder that most use an injection protocol that would reflect this. (70 days being 10 weekly, 91 days being 13 weeks.)

I totally get it. I am not saying your silly or uneducated for doing what was suggested by your doctor. I am just giving you the info so you can educate your doctor.

Nedido could be done VERY effectively, IF half-life, the proper one, was taken into account in order to achieve steady state levels.

[krugerr]

Kruger it doesn't matter what your text says. I can show you info right now that says testosterone cypionate is a 14 day half-life. That doesn't mean its true.

Just look at the chart in this post. People were well under 500, more than half, by day 14.

Okay - but for the sake of debating. Wheres the evidence that says that graph is accurate. Just trying to invoke some healthy discussion

[krugerr]

Nedido could be done VERY effectively, IF half-life, the proper one, was taken into account in order to achieve steady state levels.

Therein lies the problem. My Dr says that Nebido website is correct, and you say it isnt. How do I convince him otherwise, or likewise with you.

[IncreaseMyT]

Well the graph is accurate because it is actual men on TU. So it has to be accurate.

Remember half-lives are estimations and vary depending on things like age, body fat, and the amount and levels of the two types of esterase in our body.

BUT there is no way its gonna be 90 days when that chart, of real men on it, are between 14-21.

Is it possible for some its 30 days? Yea but I would say thats about it.\

I have also seen labs of men on Sustanon , and the main ester in it is TU.

[IncreaseMyT]

Therein lies the problem. My Dr says that Nebido website is correct, and you say it isnt. How do I convince him otherwise, or likewise with you.

Show him that chart Mr BB Posted. You can't argue with it.

Or tell him do do labs for you on day 21 after your shot. Then you guys can figure it out together.

[krugerr]

Well the graph is accurate because it is actual men on TU. So it has to be accurate.

Remember half-lives are estimations and very depending on things like age, body fat, and the amount and levels of the two types of esterase in our body.

BUT there is no way its gonna be 90 days when that chart, of real men on it, are between 14-21.

Is it possible for some its 30 days? Yea but I would say thats about it.\

I have also seen labs of men on Sustanon, and the main ester in it is TU.

Well we've a live test subject. Im going to get a blood test the day before my next shot, and I am going to get weekly blood tests. We'll quickly see where its at, and even after a week I could project the half life, but I'll run them weekly until the next shot. This will give us accurate data on at least me.

[Mr.BB]

the chart is for 750mg aveed not nebido

[krugerr]

So, here are the two blood tests on myself. The yellow NEBIDO line, is predicting a half life of 21 days, for the sake of argument.

That would coincide fairly closely to my actual results.

Test 1 - Nebido 400 (TT 225 ng/dl)
Test 2 - Nebido 350 (TT 201 ng/dl)





EDIT - Image two was incorrect. Amended.

[krugerr]

If We assume Nebido half life of 70 days on my graphs. It shows as below.
It doesnt quite add up. Ive technically more Nebido in my system at the 2nd blood test, but have lower levels.

Test 1 - Nebido 830 (TT 225 ng/dl)
Test 2 - Nebido 1000 (TT 201 ng/dl)


However, we are still in the loading phase, and not at steady state. So with future testing we'll be able to see more closely I guess.

[IncreaseMyT]

You cant get to steady state if you do not dose according to half-life.

[IncreaseMyT]

the chart is for 750mg aveed not nebido

How do you not realize its the same thing?

This is what I mean, you think its actually different?

[IncreaseMyT]

If Nebido was smart they would make 3 different single dose ampules:

600mg

400mg

300mg

This would fit just about everyone. You could use the 600 for the booster shot and the 300 and 400 could be dosed every 2 - 4 weeks.

I challenge ANYONE to get their schedule switched and compare bloods, they will be much better and your HDL will come up. You will lower inflammation essentially.

^^^^ thats where your gonna be if you want to do it right. When you for 6 years see all these labs (thousands) and watch practical application you become pretty good at guessing these things.

You also have to take into account ester weight, which I have done.

[Mr.BB]

How do you not realize its the same thing?

This is what I mean, you think its actually different?

Again you are wrong.

Aveed is 750mg, and Nebido is 1000mg, so they are different and will give different serum values.