Krugerrs TRT Journey

[krugerr]

Endo is not the specialty to see for TRT by any means. My anterior pituitary crashed from an infarct years ago and in spite of me not being able to produce LH/FSH endo says test pellets are bad. They think if you have a dusting of test you are fine. They have obviously never lived with the horrific feelings of having your hormones jacked. I have a good friend who does HRT for men and women and is a leading authority, but even she does stuff like ignores HCG for testicular atrophy, uses letrozole exclusively and does not want to consider adex, etc. I am in medicine (we get little to no training in hormones) but have gotten much better practical information here from an HRT specialist/knowledgeable member than my doc for sure. Just sayin'...

Agreed 10 times over.

I have more faith in the members of this forum than any medical professional I'm ever likely to come across.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[krugerr]

Endos can work, if they have a specialization in andrology, still usually not up to date to most procedures. Even recent medical guidelines are not so up to date...

Yeah. My luck has it this guy qualified 50 years ago.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[krugerr]

Nope, this. Splitting the nebido is not going to work.

In the car. I'll check that when home. It won't open in app. Thanks Biz.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[TjmAble]

Well, the Endo appointment...

Right from the start I knew it was a lost cause. Hes about 80 years old, has been in medicine his entire life.
He started by saying testosterone is dangerous and can kill.
We moved on to looking at my blood results (All in this thread), he noted LH and FSH were suppressed, this is probably because my doctor has been "reckless" in suggesting an 8 week injection protocol. He said it should always be 12 weeks except in extreme circumstances then possibly 10 weeks. Which basically put me on the defencive. I pointed out that LH and FSH are suppressed with any exogenous testosterone, but he ignored that. He continued to say that my levels were "satisfactory" as the range is from 200-999, and some of my bloods came in around the 200 mark. I had one test immediatly after a Nebido shot, and that came back at about 500. He said this was a dangerous level.

He then proceeded to point out that testosterone knows my weight, and wont work because of this. He used a BMI chart to determine I am morbidly obese and should drop 40kg.

I took my graphs and blood test data with me, to give him a visual representation of how my blood levels look when overlaid on my injection protocol. He wasnt at all interested. He kept saying that it will build up eventially. I then forced him to look at it. POinting out that after 1g Nebido, I was back at base levels in about 32 days. rendering the 6 week booster useless, let alone waiting 10 weeks. He said he could not explain this. He suggested that going back to daily cream is the best way to achieve steady state, and that I am too young.

He took bloods to test PSA. Informed me that I wont be able to have children on TRT and said he would look at my blood results and write to my Dr and myself accordingly.

To get my payback when he was checking my nuts for atrophy, I stretched right out and said "Perks of the job, eh!". He was not amused!

Thoughts? I think I will wait and see what he says. I am pre-empting that he will suggest going back to gel. In which case I will self medicate a while until i can afford a TRT clinic.

First of all, fvck the Gel, if you can, push for Nebido, because I came through the same situations like you to find a Good and open minded Andrologist not Endo I spend like 200 euros in Private doctor and I'm a Pre-Med myself, so I suggest you this, find a Young In Age Andrologist Doctor, the last one I went she was like 45-48 and open minded it, Old Doctors who have spend their life in the hospital are either afraid to take responsibility of you and the treatment or they are just bored and they don't want to work with you, if you find a young doctor who will have the excitement to work with you and help you I don't think that he/she will not prescribe you your TRT.

[krugerr]

First of all, fvck the Gel, if you can, push for Nebido, because I came through the same situations like you to find a Good and open minded Andrologist not Endo I spend like 200 euros in Private doctor and I'm a Pre-Med myself, so I suggest you this, find a Young In Age Andrologist Doctor, the last one I went she was like 45-48 and open minded it, Old Doctors who have spend their life in the hospital are either afraid to take responsibility of you and the treatment or they are just bored and they don't want to work with you, if you find a young doctor who will have the excitement to work with you and help you I don't think that he/she will not prescribe you your TRT.

Yes. This is what I alluded too when I said he was 80 and had spent a lifetime in medicine. He had no drive. He was just there going through the motions. Irritating.

I wasn't really aware until today that an Endo wasn't an expert on hormones. Andrologist. Is this even a role in the NHS?

Finally yeah, fuck the gel. In no way is that feasible long term unless you're unemployed without kids. The second I put it on my daughter would start screaming, my son would bash is head on something or decide to give me a running jumping cuddle.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[TjmAble]

Yes. This is what I alluded too when I said he was 80 and had spent a lifetime in medicine. He had no drive. He was just there going through the motions. Irritating.

I wasn't really aware until today that an Endo wasn't an expert on hormones. Andrologist. Is this even a role in the NHS?

Finally yeah, fuck the gel. In no way is that feasible long term unless you're unemployed without kids. The second I put it on my daughter would start screaming, my son would bash is head on something or decide to give me a running jumping cuddle.

Sent from my iPhone using App

Well It's not a very common specialty even in medicine, I'm just saying the Gel is not good cause I have read that if you want to have an "intercourse" with your woman or if you want to hug your kids it's possible to passing it on from your skin to them. The Gel itself inside the instruction paper says that if you are using it you must avoid contact with women and children.

[hammerheart]

Yes. This is what I alluded too when I said he was 80 and had spent a lifetime in medicine. He had no drive. He was just there going through the motions. Irritating.

I wasn't really aware until today that an Endo wasn't an expert on hormones. Andrologist. Is this even a role in the NHS?

Finally yeah, fuck the gel. In no way is that feasible long term unless you're unemployed without kids. The second I put it on my daughter would start screaming, my son would bash is head on something or decide to give me a running jumping cuddle.

Sent from my iPhone using App

An andrologist is usually an uro specializing in male health. About endos... I think every man on TRT did the same experience at least once.

Well It's not a very common specialty even in medicine, I'm just saying the Gel is not good cause I have read that if you want to have an "intercourse" with your woman or if you want to hug your kids it's possible to passing it on from your skin to them. The Gel itself inside the instruction paper says that if you are using it you must avoid contact with women and children.

Gels are marketing BS and don't really work for most imo. Also dirty expensive.

[TRA]

Well It's not a very common specialty even in medicine, I'm just saying the Gel is not good cause I have read that if you want to have an "intercourse" with your woman or if you want to hug your kids it's possible to passing it on from your skin to them. The Gel itself inside the instruction paper says that if you are using it you must avoid contact with women and children.

That eliminates its use for American politicians then.

[TjmAble]

That eliminates its use for American politicians then.

I live in Europe and doesn't seems to work at our politicians though

[gymffiti]

Well, the Endo appointment...

Right from the start I knew it was a lost cause. Hes about 80 years old, has been in medicine his entire life.
He started by saying testosterone is dangerous and can kill.
We moved on to looking at my blood results (All in this thread), he noted LH and FSH were suppressed, this is probably because my doctor has been "reckless" in suggesting an 8 week injection protocol. He said it should always be 12 weeks except in extreme circumstances then possibly 10 weeks. Which basically put me on the defencive. I pointed out that LH and FSH are suppressed with any exogenous testosterone, but he ignored that. He continued to say that my levels were "satisfactory" as the range is from 200-999, and some of my bloods came in around the 200 mark. I had one test immediatly after a Nebido shot, and that came back at about 500. He said this was a dangerous level.

He then proceeded to point out that testosterone knows my weight, and wont work because of this. He used a BMI chart to determine I am morbidly obese and should drop 40kg.

I took my graphs and blood test data with me, to give him a visual representation of how my blood levels look when overlaid on my injection protocol. He wasnt at all interested. He kept saying that it will build up eventially. I then forced him to look at it. POinting out that after 1g Nebido, I was back at base levels in about 32 days. rendering the 6 week booster useless, let alone waiting 10 weeks. He said he could not explain this. He suggested that going back to daily cream is the best way to achieve steady state, and that I am too young.

He took bloods to test PSA. Informed me that I wont be able to have children on TRT and said he would look at my blood results and write to my Dr and myself accordingly.

To get my payback when he was checking my nuts for atrophy, I stretched right out and said "Perks of the job, eh!". He was not amused!

Thoughts? I think I will wait and see what he says. I am pre-empting that he will suggest going back to gel. In which case I will self medicate a while until i can afford a TRT clinic.

I feel for you.

I know from past experiences, that it's so exhausting having to fight for the right treatment. Especially when feeling low and drained from medical issues

Oh and BMI? ... FFS!

[krugerr]

I feel for you. I know from past experiences, that it's so exhausting having to fight for the right treatment. Especially when feeling low and drained from medical issues Oh and BMI? ... FFS!

Yes. Fucking BMI which has me at super massively morbidly obese. Because it's a ridiculous system.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[Back In Black]

Kruger, I just got my annual bloodwork. I've been on nebido 2 years. For the first year I was at 12 week intervals.

The range used is 8-27nmol/L

One year after 12 week intervals at 10.5 weeks my levels were 11.4nmol/L

I immediately switched to 11 week intervals and

after 12 months on this schedule at 10.5 weeks my levels are 19.7nmol/L

All my other readings are in range and have barely changed between the 2 readings.

I guess this shows that even a small shortening of injection schedules can have a big impact on test levels over a period of time. Of course I am a very small study but if you could get a injection schedule at 8-10 weeks and see where you go from there.

Insist upon a second opinion.

[krugerr]

Kruger, I just got my annual bloodwork. I've been on nebido 2 years. For the first year I was at 12 week intervals.

The range used is 8-27nmol/L

One year after 12 week intervals at 10.5 weeks my levels were 11.4nmol/L

I immediately switched to 11 week intervals and

after 12 months on this schedule at 10.5 weeks my levels are 19.7nmol/L

All my other readings are in range and have barely changed between the 2 readings.

I guess this shows that even a small shortening of injection schedules can have a big impact on test levels over a period of time. Of course I am a very small study but if you could get a injection schedule at 8-10 weeks and see where you go from there.

Insist upon a second opinion.

Hi mate, thanks for posting that up here, its good to be able to see other peoples results.

Can I ask, technially speaking those blood levels are not indicative of how your year upto them was. It only reflects the most recent injection, and how long after it the blood test was.

Do you have that information? Looking at my own results, I will always be at base level before my next injection, so I have no way for it to build up over time. I was back at base levels after 32 days. Not even half way through a 10week protocol.

Im still waiting to hear back from the Endo's blood test, although I suspect it wont have much impact.

[krugerr]

Well, I'm still here. The blood test from the Endo appointment came back. He's booked to see me in February, and recommended staying on a 10 week protocol.
Im awaiting more blood test results form the 18th Nov, but suspect they'l show a goodly drop again. I can almost predict with +/- 5% accuracy what my blood levels will be on any given day now!

Attached are the latest results and graph.

BiB - I didnt mean to come across as an ass in my previous post, re-reading it, I may have. Apologies!

Do you happen to know how long after injection your blood test was taken?

[krugerr]

Well we're into 2017. I have been on Nebido for 10 months now, and the results are as expected really. My levels are fluctuating considerably, my moods continue to swing. My weight has maintained at around 300lbs.

As usual, I have collated the data and included it below in graphical and list format. There were a few other blood tests that I had, but they wouldnt release the data to me, just saying that they were "normal" so there are some periods without any.

Just to summarise, at the moment I am on a 10 weekly protocol, as directed by the Endo. My Doctor wont give me prescriptions any sooner than that. I have another Endo appointment in February. Im hoping to have enough evidence then to show I need a more frequent injection protocol.

Plus points though, even though I do have wildly unstable blood levels, I have found that the last 3-4 months I havent had any lulls in libido. I didnt document it too well, so it is hard to evidence, but I am sure I wasnt getting morning wood this frequently at the start of Nebido injections.

As always - I appreciate any comments, feedback, or knowledge.

[kelkel]

Are the 12/1/17 numbers your trough level after 10 weeks?

[krugerr]

Are the 12/1/17 numbers your trough level after 10 weeks?

Im due my next injection on the 20th. So true trough levels should be on the 19th January. But yeah in reality those are pretty close to my trough levels. (9 weeks on those levels).

They're not exactly booming numbers, but they're considerably better than my levels before TRT!

[kelkel]

Your FT levels when in the low 20's is great. Be nice to keep thing there! Also be nice to be able to pull BW every few weeks throughout this process to see where you are.

[krugerr]

Your FT levels when in the low 20's is great. Be nice to keep thing there! Also be nice to be able to pull BW every few weeks throughout this process to see where you are.

I am going to try get 5-6 blood tests done over the next 10 week period. If I did weekly my GP surgery would get suspicious and probably block me from booking them! I kinda get away with it for now. My Dr hasnt actually authorised any bloodwork, because he is a knob! :P

[krugerr]

I am going to try get 5-6 blood tests done over the next 10 week period. If I did weekly my GP surgery would get suspicious and probably block me from booking them! I kinda get away with it for now. My Dr hasnt actually authorised any bloodwork, because he is a knob! :P

Well, this 10-week protocol is nearly up.

Attached is the latest blood work, along with a graphical version. Final blood test tomorrow to see where my levels lie.
I was referred to the Endocrinologist again, but couldn't make the appointment, so I have to wait a few months again. Cant fault the NHS as it is free, but damn they are slow!

Mood has been fairly stable, and by that, I mean I havent noticed any abnormal mood swings.
As you'll be able to see in the data below, my Oestradiol swings quite wildly. Climbing dramatically right after injection, and then dropping down of the 10-week protocol as we expect.
Is this much swing normal/acceptable? In the UK they dont prescribe any AI or HCG with TRT, so my levels are purely on the Nebido injections. Thoughts anyone?

[AR's King Silabolin]

Why dont u try Di-Indoly Methane?. Isnt that OTC.? Aust said he does that with his TRT...Im considering it myself if my estrogen comes out high 6 week in my Nebidojourney.

[krugerr]

Why dont u try Di-Indoly Methane?. Isnt that OTC.? Aust said he does that with his TRT...Im considering it myself if my estrogen comes out high 6 week in my Nebidojourney.

I hadn't considered it, and had quite honestly forgotten most of the stuff in Austs thread. Thanks for the reminder Sil.

Also, welcome back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk