Ukrainian/Russian Jintropin

[The Titan99]

By the time we reach the age of 30 years old are hgh levels are already declining and continue to at around 12 to 15% per decade and between the ages of 30-40yrs old the amount we produce anyway isn't enough to repair all the damage what's occurring through our natural aging process ahyway. So I wouldn't worry to much about preserving your natural hgh levels because if using exogenous gh your tiny amount of natural gh is going to be supressed anyway.


I think LR3 is a complete waste of money and its all hype your better sticking with hgh IMHO and wouldn't advice over the internet regarding slin due to how dangerous it can be if not used correctly so I only advice regarding slin face to face. I've only ever tried it twice and didn't like it and found better results with other hormones.

So rather than mess with the IGF-1, you'd think it would be a better use of $$ to just go to 8-10 i.u.'s of GH (that would actually be a little cheaper.)?

[marcus300]

So rather than mess with the IGF-1, you'd think it would be a better use of $$ to just go to 8-10 i.u.'s of GH (that would actually be a little cheaper.)?

Yes I do

[The Titan99]

I'm going to get back on in a month or so and I'm going to do 5 on 2 off at 2iu. If lethargy comes into play even with that low of a dose then I will do it before bed

This is the definition of bi polar posting. What are you going to do about the crippling joint pain? I guess you could stack it with massive doses of Vicodin...

[imom]

What disadvantages have you seen because your gh output is slightly lower than the normal and what advantages do you really think 2ius is going to give you?

If the lab range represents 95% of results (I don't know which percentile they are using) then I'd be in the bottom 1%. I wouldn't call that 'slightly lower' than normal.

I have seen a few doctors over the years regarding poor sleep, low energy, impaired mental ability, and just low QOL. They just gave me a standard blood panel and when everything came back ok, they shrugged. Then I discovered on my own that my Test and HGH levels were low, and that this could explain my symptoms. I am hoping that restoring these hormones to optimal values will improve my QOL in various ways. It is also healthier to be close to optimal values, as being low in these hormones can lead to many effects such as osteoporosis, early death, etc.

[marcus300]

If the lab range represents 95% of results (I don't know which percentile they are using) then I'd be in the bottom 1%. I wouldn't call that 'slightly lower' than normal.

I have seen a few doctors over the years regarding poor sleep, low energy, impaired mental ability, and just low QOL. They just gave me a standard blood panel and when everything came back ok, they shrugged. Then I discovered on my own that my Test and HGH levels were low, and that this could explain my symptoms. I am hoping that restoring these hormones to optimal values will improve my QOL in various ways. It is also healthier to be close to optimal values, as being low in these hormones can lead to many effects such as osteoporosis, early death, etc.

If you test is low then that will be the cause of your issues, get your self on trt asap

[imom]

If you test is low then that will be the cause of your issues, get your self on trt asap

Thanks, I started that a few weeks ago too.

[marcus300]

Thanks, I started that a few weeks ago too.

Give it a few weeks and I am sure things will get better for you, low T is a living hell. All you need to is get yourself balanced properly and this can take time but once you have your life will feel better again.

[snowblowjoe]

That's why I'm starting at such a low dosage bro. To mitigate the joint pain. I'm not doing it anytime soon. I feel good again tho no joint pain.

[slimshady01]

Marcus!

Pinning 4iu growth , I always go back and forth as to pin in the AM and PM.. Am would blunt cortisol but at night I feel this is when we repair grow etc..

Also that being said would 2iu in am then 2 pm work or would you just pop all 4 at once.

[marcus300]

Marcus!

Pinning 4iu growth , I always go back and forth as to pin in the AM and PM.. Am would blunt cortisol but at night I feel this is when we repair grow etc..

Also that being said would 2iu in am then 2 pm work or would you just pop all 4 at once.

Something for you to think about,
There are many ways to administrate gh and ive tried and tested many of them. The suppression comes from elevated IGF levels which last hours so if you are using gh for long periods of time your natural gh pulse is going to be blunted anyway. You also got to understand that there is a reason why the largest natural gh pulse is at night and how large is this pulse if the average man is producing lets says 1.5ius daily. So if your taking exogenous hgh at reasonable dose your natural gh is going to be suppressed and even if it wasn't suppressed its not worth saving anyway because you don't produce enough even if your night time pulse was half of your daily hgh output. So if all the growth factors and benefits happen during REM when our largest pulse is activated then why not follow your natural body's rhythm and inject the largest amount at night to get the most benefits out of your exogenous hgh.

[slimshady01]

Something for you to think about,
There are many ways to administrate gh and ive tried and tested many of them. The suppression comes from elevated IGF levels which last hours so if you are using gh for long periods of time your natural gh pulse is going to be blunted anyway. You also got to understand that there is a reason why the largest natural gh pulse is at night and how large is this pulse if the average man is producing lets says 1.5ius daily. So if your taking exogenous hgh at reasonable dose your natural gh is going to be suppressed and even if it wasn't suppressed its not worth saving anyway because you don't produce enough even if your night time pulse was half of your daily hgh output. So if all the growth factors and benefits happen during REM when our largest pulse is activated then why not follow your natural body's rhythm and inject the largest amount at night to get the most benefits out of your exogenous hgh.

That's exactly what kept me thinking to pin all 4iu at night..

For some reason I always liked pinning before bed and as of now I will take my 4iu at night..

Thanks Marcus .

[marcus300]

That's exactly what kept me thinking to pin all 4iu at night..

For some reason I always liked pinning before bed and as of now I will take my 4iu at night..

Thanks Marcus .

I'd still split the dose into 2 ius but pin one at night, better still would be if you was on more ius then pin the largest amount at night...

[slimshady01]

I'd still split the dose into 2 ius but pin one at night, better still would be if you was on more ius then pin the largest amount at night...

Thanks again

[freshmaker]

I wear a sleep monitor that calculates light vs deep sleep. I've noticed that when I pin at night my sleep is much deeper. Just for that i pin an hour before bed.

[snowblowjoe]

What's the difference between light and deep sleep? Is deep just rem sleep and light does not have any rem activity?

[human project]

What do you expect 2 ius of gh is going to do to you? IMHO it will do nothing or very close to nothing when you take in what we produce naturally. Its a pointless exercise running 2ius unless your going to start low and ramp it up to 4ius were you will see some fat loss and condition and the usually health benefits over time but 2 ius imho will do nothing when young adolescents secrete HGH at the rate of about 700 ?g/day, while healthy adults secrete HGH at the rate of about 400 ?g/day. which works out very close to 2 ius naturally so you shutting down a system and replacing it with the same.

1mg = 3iu
700ug = .7mg
.7mg = 2.1iu This is how much HGH an adolescent secretes in a day
.4mg = 1.2iu This is how much HGH an adult secretes in a day

(Gardner, David G., Shoback, Dolores (2007). Greenspan's Basic and Clinical Endocrinology (8th ed.). New York: McGraw-Hill Medical. pp. 193–201. ISBN 0-07-144011-9.)

If you have used real hgh fro any length of time you will understand what dosages do t the body, they is no quick results with gh its a time thing and you need to use a min of 4 ius to see some health benefits and slight fat loss, you want to see muscle tissue gains and serious results you need to be running at least 8ius+ for 6months at least.

Do you think 2iu's per shot 2-4 times a day is better or taking 4-8iu's at one time daily?

[human project]

But your weekly dose is the same, right? For instance, instead of 3iu ed, you'd do 6iu eod? That's how it's recommended to optimize GH use in the educational part of this site. I haven't seen that elsewhere but I haven't looked specifically for it. (Edited to read as if English was my first language)

Why is every other day better?? So is splitting dsily doses bad also. Would it be best to just take a very large dose three times a week.??? I currently take 2ius 2 times a day 6 on 1 off... I also take a couple 2-5 iu's after really hard workouts where I use insulin .

[marcus300]

Do you think 2iu's per shot 2-4 times a day is better or taking 4-8iu's at one time daily?

I have a article which I will post when I get chance to search for it on my other computer what's states the best dose would be
6-8ius a day split into two doses and I think its stressed that you should have 5 -7 hours inbetween injections. One being at night time. It makes really good reading.

If your hgh protocol is working stick with it, why change if your getting results. On a personal note I would prefer two injection per day.


be a total six to eight IU a day divided into two doses and having those five to seven hours apart. For example, a dose (either three or four IU) can be taken post training with another three to four IU dose before bed or during the night sleeping period."

[marcus300]

Why is every other day better?? So is splitting dsily doses bad also. Would it be best to just take a very large dose three times a week.??? I currently take 2ius 2 times a day 6 on 1 off... I also take a couple 2-5 iu's after really hard workouts where I use insulin.

Ive had excellent results from EOD and E3D when I was running a heavy blast cycle with a large amount of gh.

[human project]

Ive had excellent results from EOD and E3D when I was running a heavy blast cycle with a large amount of gh.

So 4-5iu's 2 times a day "10 iu's per day" three times a week would be better then 2.5iu's 2 times a day 6 on 1 off..... They both add up to a total of 30iu's per week but my question is are you saying that 3 times a week would be better for muscle growth?? You also said on a blast; I'm currently only running trt dose..... Does this matter?? Sorry for all the questions I just spend so much on gh "the most expensive part of bodybuilding" so I want to make sure I get the most for my money.....

[marcus300]

So 4-5iu's 2 times a day "10 iu's per day" three times a week would be better then 2.5iu's 2 times a day 6 on 1 off..... They both add up to a total of 30iu's per week but my question is are you saying that 3 times a week would be better for muscle growth?? You also said on a blast; I'm currently only running trt dose..... Does this matter?? Sorry for all the questions I just spend so much on gh "the most expensive part of bodybuilding" so I want to make sure I get the most for my money.....

When I ran eod and e3d high dose it was on a heavy burst cycle, so I wouldn't run it like that on trt and you shouldn't be running a high dose anyway on trt. The best results for tissue growth are when you mix hgh with aas the synergy is remarkable but if your off cycle and just running trt then you should be around 4 ius IMHO.

There are many ways to run hgh, ive been running it lately ed for months now even on cycle, I only did eod and e3d when I was bulking heavy and wanted to gain serious muscle tissue.

[AnabolicDoc]

Why is every other day better?? So is splitting dsily doses bad also. Would it be best to just take a very large dose three times a week.??? I currently take 2ius 2 times a day 6 on 1 off... I also take a couple 2-5 iu's after really hard workouts where I use insulin.

Sound like marcus answered all your questions, which is great bc I didn't know a lot of the answers. Thanks marcus!

[marcus300]

Interesting study I found on my computer what you guys may enjoy reading, also confirms some of the things ive been expressing over the last few posts. Study also shows positive results running high dose EOD protocol's


Body composition response to exogenous GH during training in highly conditioned adults, D. M. Crist, J Appl Physiol 65: 579-584, 1988

Intro:
The effects of biosynthetic methionyl-human growth hormone (met-hGH) on body composition and endogenous secretion of growth hormone (GH) and insulin -like growth factor I (IGF-I) were studied in eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age for 6 weeks.


Dosing & Administration:
The met-hGH (experimental) treatment consisted of 8.0 mg (2 U/mg) per week of methGH (Protropin; Genentech, San Francisco, CA), which was divided into three doses (2.67 mg/dose) and delivered on alternate days (3 days/wk) in 0.5 ml of bacteriostatic diluent. Because of differences in the body weights of the subjects, the relative dose range varied between 0.03 and 0.05 mg/kg per injection. Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, and their delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period. Treatments were administered on a double-blind basis with neither the experimental subject nor the person administering the injections knowing which treatment was being delivered. The total weekly dose of met-hGH used in this study (8.0 mg) was considered supraphysiological, since the spontaneous release of human GH during a 24-h period is purportedly -0.68 mg (4.8 mg/wk) in men and 0.79 mg (5.5 mg/wk) in women (30), similar to amounts reported by others (6).


CONCLUSION
In the present study, we found that alternate-day treatment with met-hGH altered body composition in highly conditioned, exercising adults by increasing FFW (fat free weight), decreasing %fat, and increasing FFW (fat free weight)/FW (fat weight). These changes were significantly greater than those produced by exercise alone.
...
Moreover we found that supraphysiological amounts of met-hGH were sufficient to significantly elevate circulating concentrations of IGF-I in all our subjects, confirming that the changes in body composition were indeed due to real alterations produced in vivo by the hormone treatment.


Supression of endogenous GH
It has been reported previously that exogenous GH will suppress endogenous release of the hormone (19,23) and that this effect may be mediated in part by elevated levels of IGF-I (23). On a preliminary basis, we found that treatment for 6 wk with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH produced an impaired endogenous GH response to stimulation in some, but not all, of our subjects. This variable response may be related to the amount of hormone used in the study. Although a significant group elevation in IGF-I levels occurred during the met-hGH treatment, this response was still below the upper limit of normal (2.20 U/ml) for the study group. Thus it is plausible that the treatment dose of met-hGH used and the subsequent moderate increase in IGF-I levels led to feedback suppression of endogenous GH release in five of the seven subjects measured for this effect, whereas these physiological events were insufficient to produce this effect in two of the subjects.


Intense exercise increases sensitivity to GH??
...One possible explanation for the disparity between our findings and those of others (25, 26) is that the stress of long-term, intensive exercise training could induce alterations in vivo, which might potentiate tissue sensitivity to the physiological actions of GH (2). In any case, it is clear from our findings that supraphysiological doses of met-hGH increased circulating concentrations of IGF-I and increased FFW (fat free weight) and decreased FW (fat weight) in highly conditioned, exercising adults.


Soft-tissue Overgrowth?
There are two principal adverse reactions associated with excessive amounts of human GH, carbohydrate intolerance, and soft-tissue overgrowth. In the present study, we measured fasting blood glucose levels periodically throughout each treatment and found no real changes suggestive of a hyperglycemic response to methGH. Because soft-tissue overgrowth is associated with abnormally high levels of IGF-I, the normal responses observed suggest that the chance for soft-tissue overgrowth occurring in our subjects was minimal. However, it is unreasonable to conclude that use of met-hGH is safe as an adjunct to exercise in healthy adults until more subjects are studied over longer periods of time and with more stringent tests for detecting changes in glucose tolerance and soft-tissue overgrowth.


Diet used
To avoid compromising the dietary requirements for optimal tissue anabolism during the met-hGH treatment, our subjects ingested between 2.05 and 2.10 g/kg a day of protein and a minimum number of kilocalories to maintain body weight. The kilocaloric requirement removed the potential bias from a dietary-induced FW loss.


In Conclusion
We conclude that treatment with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH will significantly alter body composition in adults who are highly conditioned from years of exercise training. The magnitude of this effect, however, is dependent in part on the amount of hormone given per body weight of the individual rather than endogenous GH secretory status. Changes in body composition are directly related to met-hGH administration, but the manifestations of treatment may be mediated in part by increased production of IGF-I or other GH-dependent serum anabolic factors. Moreover, supraphysiological treatment with met-hGH in exercising adults may produce impairments in the stimulated release of endogenous GH in some individuals.

[MajorPectorial]

Great read. N1 yet again

[swithuk]

great read . thanks

[human project]

Interesting study I found on my computer what you guys may enjoy reading, also confirms some of the things ive been expressing over the last few posts. Study also shows positive results running high dose EOD protocol's

Body composition response to exogenous GH during training in highly conditioned adults, D. M. Crist, J Appl Physiol 65: 579-584, 1988

Intro:
The effects of biosynthetic methionyl-human growth hormone (met-hGH) on body composition and endogenous secretion of growth hormone (GH) and insulin -like growth factor I (IGF-I) were studied in eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age for 6 weeks.

Dosing & Administration:
The met-hGH (experimental) treatment consisted of 8.0 mg (2 U/mg) per week of methGH (Protropin; Genentech, San Francisco, CA), which was divided into three doses (2.67 mg/dose) and delivered on alternate days (3 days/wk) in 0.5 ml of bacteriostatic diluent. Because of differences in the body weights of the subjects, the relative dose range varied between 0.03 and 0.05 mg/kg per injection. Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, and their delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period. Treatments were administered on a double-blind basis with neither the experimental subject nor the person administering the injections knowing which treatment was being delivered. The total weekly dose of met-hGH used in this study (8.0 mg) was considered supraphysiological, since the spontaneous release of human GH during a 24-h period is purportedly -0.68 mg (4.8 mg/wk) in men and 0.79 mg (5.5 mg/wk) in women (30), similar to amounts reported by others (6).

CONCLUSION
In the present study, we found that alternate-day treatment with met-hGH altered body composition in highly conditioned, exercising adults by increasing FFW (fat free weight), decreasing %fat, and increasing FFW (fat free weight)/FW (fat weight). These changes were significantly greater than those produced by exercise alone.
...
Moreover we found that supraphysiological amounts of met-hGH were sufficient to significantly elevate circulating concentrations of IGF-I in all our subjects, confirming that the changes in body composition were indeed due to real alterations produced in vivo by the hormone treatment.

Supression of endogenous GH
It has been reported previously that exogenous GH will suppress endogenous release of the hormone (19,23) and that this effect may be mediated in part by elevated levels of IGF-I (23). On a preliminary basis, we found that treatment for 6 wk with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH produced an impaired endogenous GH response to stimulation in some, but not all, of our subjects. This variable response may be related to the amount of hormone used in the study. Although a significant group elevation in IGF-I levels occurred during the met-hGH treatment, this response was still below the upper limit of normal (2.20 U/ml) for the study group. Thus it is plausible that the treatment dose of met-hGH used and the subsequent moderate increase in IGF-I levels led to feedback suppression of endogenous GH release in five of the seven subjects measured for this effect, whereas these physiological events were insufficient to produce this effect in two of the subjects.

Intense exercise increases sensitivity to GH??
...One possible explanation for the disparity between our findings and those of others (25, 26) is that the stress of long-term, intensive exercise training could induce alterations in vivo, which might potentiate tissue sensitivity to the physiological actions of GH (2). In any case, it is clear from our findings that supraphysiological doses of met-hGH increased circulating concentrations of IGF-I and increased FFW (fat free weight) and decreased FW (fat weight) in highly conditioned, exercising adults.

Soft-tissue Overgrowth?
There are two principal adverse reactions associated with excessive amounts of human GH, carbohydrate intolerance, and soft-tissue overgrowth. In the present study, we measured fasting blood glucose levels periodically throughout each treatment and found no real changes suggestive of a hyperglycemic response to methGH. Because soft-tissue overgrowth is associated with abnormally high levels of IGF-I, the normal responses observed suggest that the chance for soft-tissue overgrowth occurring in our subjects was minimal. However, it is unreasonable to conclude that use of met-hGH is safe as an adjunct to exercise in healthy adults until more subjects are studied over longer periods of time and with more stringent tests for detecting changes in glucose tolerance and soft-tissue overgrowth.

Diet used
To avoid compromising the dietary requirements for optimal tissue anabolism during the met-hGH treatment, our subjects ingested between 2.05 and 2.10 g/kg a day of protein and a minimum number of kilocalories to maintain body weight. The kilocaloric requirement removed the potential bias from a dietary-induced FW loss.

In Conclusion
We conclude that treatment with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH will significantly alter body composition in adults who are highly conditioned from years of exercise training. The magnitude of this effect, however, is dependent in part on the amount of hormone given per body weight of the individual rather than endogenous GH secretory status. Changes in body composition are directly related to met-hGH administration, but the manifestations of treatment may be mediated in part by increased production of IGF-I or other GH-dependent serum anabolic factors. Moreover, supraphysiological treatment with met-hGH in exercising adults may produce impairments in the stimulated release of endogenous GH in some individuals.

So how man actual iu's were administered per injection?? I know its 2.7ius per mg but I'm confused with how I would use this method.... I'm 250lbs

[ImpeccableChaos]

Thanks for the post marcus. Do you feel EOD protocol is good for QOL anti ageing, or more for BB?

[snowblowjoe]

If eod is so effective then why don't they prescribe that protocol when you go to an anti aging clinic?

[AnabolicDoc]

A lot of common practices of modern medicine are not necessarily the most superior approach, particularly in this area of medicine. Not to say they aren't good, just sometimes fall a little short. You'll find that subspecialties that are heavily studied and investigated, such as critical care, cardiology, infectious disease, and so forth demonstrate a much higher rate of "best practices".

[Rick Kane]

If eod is so effective then why don't they prescribe that protocol when you go to an anti aging clinic?

Because anti aging is a lifestyle based on long term hgh supplementation with an emphasis on healthy living, not tissue growth. Obviously patients are also looking for aesthetic improvements but no AA clinic will script a patient for almost 8ius eod. Off label hgh use for AA is a gray area to begin with since that's not what it's approved for.

[snowblowjoe]

That all makes sense. I'm also not naive enough to think Dr's are always right. Hgh just seems like one of those compounds were theories constantly change. As soon as you think you have all the data then another study comes out proving your previous theory all wrong. Makes sense tho, any newer compound goes through this process. I'd bet it doesn't really matter too much when you take it but that's just a gut instinct.

[AnabolicDoc]

Because anti aging is a lifestyle based on long term hgh supplementation with an emphasis on healthy living, not tissue growth. Obviously patients are also looking for aesthetic improvements but no AA clinic will script a patient for almost 8ius eod. Off label hgh use for AA is a gray area to begin with since that's not what it's approved for.

The FDA had actually gone as far as prohibiting the prescribing of hgh for anti-aging or related purposes. Violating these restrictions is punishable by harsh actions (such as loss of licensing) and/or fines.

[snowblowjoe]

Why does the fda suck so bad. They have no problem licensing drugs they know will probably cause a lawsuit within a decade due to fukd up side effects

[Believe]

wow tons of great info in here, looks like i have some reading to do.

[imom]

Interesting study I found on my computer ...

Thanks for posting that. It's a pity that it wasn't more specific about the endogenous HGH suppression. "An impaired endogenous GH response" could mean 5% or 95%.

[imom]

So how man actual iu's were administered per injection?? I know its 2.7ius per mg but I'm confused with how I would use this method.... I'm 250lbs

It's equivalent to 3 IU per day.

[AnabolicDoc]

If you look at the prescribing inserts of at least some hgh preparations, it states 2.7iu = 1mg

[imom]

Well this stuff certainly works. My IGF-1 quadrupled after 3 weeks of 2IU/day! I will try 1IU/day for a while.

[slimshady01]

Well this stuff certainly works. My IGF-1 quadrupled after 3 weeks of 2IU/day! I will try 1IU/day for a while.

When did u get bloods done and what were before and after lvls exact ?

[imom]

When did u get bloods done and what were before and after lvls exact ?

Both tests were done late morning with no food or drink since previous day.
Second test was done before my daily injections, so 24 hours since previous shot.

My IGF-1 was at 141 ng/ml (lab range: 160-318)

My IGF-1 is now at 692 after taking just 2IU per day for 3 weeks. This is more than I want so I will scale down and retest in a few weeks. I also started Test replacement therapy (75mg Test Prop/week) at the same time so there might have been some synergy going on there.