1st cycle: test cyp @ 500mg/wk - 12 weeks!

**ANIMAL** · 09-26-2012, 10:48 AM

Aren't you concerned during PCT not having any HCG when test levels start to drop and the body is all out of whack? I'm trying to justify sticking to 250iu from here on out instead of the 2 week on/2 week off method with a blast during PCT.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-26-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by ANIMAL

Aren't you concerned during PCT not having any HCG when test levels start to drop and the body is all out of whack? I'm trying to justify sticking to 250iu from here on out instead of the 2 week on/2 week off method with a blast during PCT.

I am being told to NOT incorporate HCG during PCT, but to keep on using it throughout cycle and up to 5 days before PCT. My exact plan is as follows:

Week 14 - finish cycle (still doing 500 IUs/wk here, along with AI protocol)
Week 15 - 16: 1000 IU/wk, along with AI protocol
Week 17 - 20: PCT (Clomid/Nolva - drop AI and HCG)

**ANIMAL** · 09-26-2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

I am being told to NOT incorporate HCG during PCT, but to keep on using it throughout cycle and up to 5 days before PCT. My exact plan is as follows:

Week 14 - finish cycle (still doing 500 IUs/wk here, along with AI protocol)
Week 15 - 16: 1000 IU/wk, along with AI protocol
Week 17 - 20: PCT (Clomid/Nolva - drop AI and HCG)

Right, I get that part. But I'm looking for more facts then people saying "don't do hcg during PCT". Like, what is the reason why people don't suggest HCG in PCT. I can give you reasons why it should be included, but I have only read people say "don't" with ZERO facts or reasoning other then "I read it on the forum from a guy who looks like Arnold."

**MickeyKnox** · 09-26-2012, 11:50 AM

^^ run your hcg on cycle and up to the beginning of your pct. pin hcg one day before your test for max results.

**MickeyKnox** · 09-26-2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by ANIMAL

Right, I get that part. But I'm looking for more facts then people saying "don't do hcg during PCT". Like, what is the reason why people don't suggest HCG in PCT. I can give you reasons why it should be included, but I have only read people say "don't" with ZERO facts or reasoning other then "I read it on the forum from a guy who looks like Arnold."

why would you WANT testicular atrophy?? if you could prevent it on cycle would you? and if you ran hcg on cycle you would not be entering your pct and requiring hcg to assist in restarting hpta. your restart is a lot smother and easier if your testies are functioning when entering pct portion of your cycle. this is what i beleive based on information from Dr. Chrisler, Dr Shippen, and a host of AAS users with tons of current experience.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-26-2012, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

^^ run your hcg on cycle and up to the beginning of your pct. pin hcg one day before your test for max results.

Right, that is what I am doing (as you can see from my post #82) excepet I pin HCG 2 days after my test cyp injections to keep T levels stable. I am also stopping HCG 4-5days before PCT (these are all Swifto's recommendations. If you don't agree, I'd love to hear why)

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

why would you WANT testicular atrophy?? if you could prevent it on cycle would you? and if you ran hcg on cycle you would not be entering your pct and requiring hcg to assist in restarting hpta. your restart is a lot smother and easier if your testies are functioning when entering pct portion of your cycle. this is what i beleive based on information from Dr. Chrisler, Dr Shippen, and a host of AAS users with tons of current experience.

This was also my understanding, but I know ANIMAL said he has spoken with very experienced bodybuilders/doctors who recommend another route for HCG. So who knows....

**MickeyKnox** · 09-26-2012, 12:10 PM

not sure what Swifto's reasoning is for stopping 5 days prior to pct. BUT, im sure has a good one.

all i know is i pin hcg twice a wk one day before my test based on published studies from arguably the two foremost authorities on the planet on this subject. my inclusion of hcg up pct is based on twice a wk pinning. my last hcg pin lands on the day before my last test pin. it's simple and it works.

as far as Animal and his info goes, i cannot comment on that. those are his findings based on his research.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-26-2012, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

not sure what Swifto's reasoning is for stopping 5 days prior to pct. BUT, im sure has a good one.

all i know is i pin hcg twice a wk one day before my test based on published studies from arguably the two foremost authorities on the planet on this subject. my inclusion of hcg up pct is based on twice a wk pinning. my last hcg pin lands on the day before my last test pin. it's simple and it works.

as far as Animal and his info goes, i cannot comment on that. those are his findings based on his research.

Interesting. I'll see if I can get Swifto to chime in if he has time. Thanks for the info.

**ANIMAL** · 09-26-2012, 12:30 PM

I'm not knocking anyone, nor am I saying I have the golden ticket for HCG lol. Just trying to get all the information possible and reasoning.

If you stop HCG 2 weeks before PCT and you're not taking in any test what's going to make the LH levels come back? What's going to make your balls make test with no HCG and LH is down?

This is the grey area for me to understand the reasoning.

**Swifto** · 09-26-2012, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

not sure what Swifto's reasoning is for stopping 5 days prior to pct. BUT, im sure has a good one.

all i know is i pin hcg twice a wk one day before my test based on published studies from arguably the two foremost authorities on the planet on this subject. my inclusion of hcg up pct is based on twice a wk pinning. my last hcg pin lands on the day before my last test pin. it's simple and it works.

as far as Animal and his info goes, i cannot comment on that. those are his findings based on his research.

Because when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this peroid there is a leydig cell refractory peroid, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even fro a few day) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.

This refractory peroid is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.

Endogenous LH levels can rise farily quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too.

Good enough reason?

**Trying-Hard** · 09-26-2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by ANIMAL

I'm not knocking anyone, nor am I saying I have the golden ticket for HCG lol. Just trying to get all the information possible and reasoning.

If you stop HCG 2 weeks before PCT and you're not taking in any test what's going to make the LH levels come back? What's going to make your balls make test with no HCG and LH is down?

This is the grey area for me to understand the reasoning.

HCG will be stopped 4-5 days before PCT, not 2 weeks before PCT. Not sure if your question would still apply or not knowing this.

Anyway, I sent a PM to Swifto and I hope he can shed some light.

EDIT: Thanks, Swifto!!

**ANIMAL** · 09-26-2012, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

HCG will be stopped 4-5 days before PCT, not 2 weeks before PCT. Not sure if your question would still apply or not knowing this.

Anyway, I sent a PM to Swifto and I hope he can shed some light.

EDIT: Thanks, Swifto!!

The 2 weeks before PCT was directed towards mickey, not you.

**Swifto** · 09-26-2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

HCG will be stopped 4-5 days before PCT, not 2 weeks before PCT. Not sure if your question would still apply or not knowing this.

Anyway, I sent a PM to Swifto and I hope he can shed some light.

EDIT: Thanks, Swifto!!

My pleasure.

HCG can be stopped 2 weeks before, thats not essentially wrong. But I'd rather keep the testes functioning/full in that time peroid, not just waiting when androgen levels are falling from the said Testosterone preparation exiting the body.

**MickeyKnox** · 09-26-2012, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Because when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this peroid there is a leydig cell refractory peroid, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even fro a few day) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.

This refractory peroid is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.

Endogenous LH levels can rise farily quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too.

Good enough reason?

thanks for your input Swifto.

could you provide a link to the medical study youre referencing so that i may read it and include it in my hcg material? again, thanks for chiming in.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-27-2012, 09:21 AM

Back workout tonight. Got in the gym late so I cut it short a little.

Wide grip lat pull down:
100 lbs, 15x (warm up)
120 lbs, 15x (warm up)
150 lbs, 10x
170 lbs, 10x
180 lbs, 10x

Seated rows:
200 lbs, 3 x 10

T-bar rows:
2 plates, 10x
3 plates, 10x
3.25 plates, 8x

Below the knee rack pulls:
225, 10x
315, 10x
365, 8x (could have done 10)

Finished off with some bis.

I usually do 4 upper back exercises and 1 lower back exercise for a total of 5 back exercises, but today I did 3 upper back and 1 lower back exercise for a total of 4 back exercises. I think I liked it better this way.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-29-2012, 07:05 PM

Took Friday and Saturday off, so I missed shoulders (don't care), calves & hams (this is a big deal to me). But I just feel like I need to rest my body a few days.

Back at it Monday.

Starting morning weight: 180.0
End of week 1: 180.6
End of week 2: 184.0
End of week 3: 187.2
End of week 4: 186.4
End of week 5: 187.4
End of week 6: 187.2
End of week 7: 189.4
End of week 8: 191.8

6 weeks to go.....

**MickeyKnox** · 09-29-2012, 07:09 PM

^^ looking good bro.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-29-2012, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

^^ looking good bro.

Thanks, Mickey.

**Trying-Hard** · 09-30-2012, 06:39 PM

Got some updated measurements today. All are 100% cold.

Week 1: Arms: 18.5"
Week 8: Arms: 19"

Week 1: Chest: 46.25"
Week 8: Chest: 48.5"

Week 1: Shoulders: 52.5"
Week 8: Shoulders: 54"

Week 1: Upper legs: 26"
Week 8: Upper legs: 27"

BF: Not so sure, but I feel/look like I am at a very similar BF when started.

Tomorrow starts 1st day of week 9.

**Mr_Prop_var_Testen** · 09-30-2012, 08:49 PM

Wow 19" arms remember we talked about this...now it's happening and the remaining weeks u should feel much better and stronger on test e .

**Trying-Hard** · 10-01-2012, 06:06 AM

ALL,

Please read this thread I created yesterday after getting my BW back regarding estrogen levels!!!

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...!#.UGmFGbe9Kc2

Cliff notes: I was taking the standard protocol of l-stane (12.5mg eod) and for my body, it is evident that is not nearly enough to keep E levels under control. I will be switching to Pham grade Adex @ .5mg Ed for 7 days then .5mg eod for the rest of cycle leading into PCT. BW results to follow in 2-3 weeks from today.

HUGE thanks to all that helped, especially austinite!!

**ANIMAL** · 10-01-2012, 07:58 AM

Just read your thread. Are you experiencing any side effects in regards to having those estrogen levels? IE. gyno, loss of libido, fatigue etc.

**Trying-Hard** · 10-01-2012, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by ANIMAL

Just read your thread. Are you experiencing any side effects in regards to having those estrogen levels? IE. gyno, loss of libido, fatigue etc.

Libido is through the roof, but I am definitely tired (but as we talked about, that could very well be from my lack of sleep). As far as gyno, I only got symptoms and when I incorporated your protocol for it, everything was ok.

BP was also ok at 124/82. Not perfect, but not bad. I would say the only real side I got from this high of estrogen level are the gyno symptoms and sensitivity.

On my way out the door now to pick up prescription Adex. Not taking any chances with my source's AI or ar-r .

**Trying-Hard** · 10-01-2012, 01:51 PM

Chest workout was great!! Strength really starting to come in. I am glad I decided to lengthen the cycle to 14 weeks given that it took this long for strength gains to kick in, and I would also like to see where I get to when I dont have elevated E levels in my system.

Anyways....

Incline DB:
25 x 20 (warm up)
45 x 20 (warm up)
60 x 20 (warm up)
80 x 12
100 x 10
115 x 8

Flat barbell:
245 x 10
265 x 8
275 x 6
185 x 10 (drop set)

Seated chest press
210 x 10 (2 sets)
135 x 10 (drop set)

Finished off with some tris.

I am looking forward to getting my Estrogen levels under control. I am assuming this whole time my gains were inhibited by the elevated Estrogen levels....(just guessing)

**austinite** · 10-03-2012, 08:12 PM

Awesome, TH! Keep killing it at the gym! And thanks for sharing your estro experience with everyone. Adds a great deal of knowledge to your thread. Good work.

**Trying-Hard** · 10-04-2012, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by austinite

Awesome, TH! Keep killing it at the gym! And thanks for sharing your estro experience with everyone. Adds a great deal of knowledge to your thread. Good work.

Thanks buddy!!

**Trying-Hard** · 10-05-2012, 12:50 PM

Did shoulders today. I decided a few weeks ago that I am going to take it easy on shoulder day. I am sick of injuries and understand that shoulders are being worked on many occasions like chest, back, arms, etc. So now on shoulder days I do a maximum of 9 sets and go light-moderate in weight and call it good. I have been doing this for 2weeks and should have started it 2 years ago.

Week 9 is almost over...hello week 10 with 5 weeks to go!!

**Trying-Hard** · 10-07-2012, 12:35 PM

Starting morning weight: 180.0
End of week 1: 180.6
End of week 2: 184.0
End of week 3: 187.2
End of week 4: 186.4
End of week 5: 187.4
End of week 6: 187.2
End of week 7: 189.4
End of week 8: 191.8
End of week 9: 192.4

Talk about slooowwwwww gains. I am OK with it as long as I keep 95% of it before next cycle..lol.

I am still taking .5mg Adex ED and will continue to do so through tomorrow. Then I will drop it to .5 EOD for 7 more days. After that, I will get BW to see where my E2 levels are and hoping for them to have dropped to normal range.

9 weeks down, 5 to go....

**austinite** · 10-07-2012, 12:49 PM

Slow gains are quality gains! Those who gain fast lose it fast. Just keep doing what you're doing... Thanks for updating. Looking forward to seeing the new bloodwork.

**Trying-Hard** · 10-11-2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by austinite

Slow gains are quality gains! Those who gain fast lose it fast. Just keep doing what you're doing... Thanks for updating. Looking forward to seeing the new bloodwork.

Thanks bro. I sent you a PM, hopefully you can give me your .02.

I am learning a lot about my body this cycle...hot damn..lol

**Trying-Hard** · 10-14-2012, 10:44 AM

Starting morning weight: 180.0
End of week 1: 180.6
End of week 2: 184.0
End of week 3: 187.2
End of week 4: 186.4
End of week 5: 187.4
End of week 6: 187.2
End of week 7: 189.4
End of week 8: 191.8
End of week 9: 192.4
End of week 10: 194.6

I actually hit 195.0 morning weight yesterday, but since the official weigh-in is every Sunday morning and not Saturday morning, the 195.0 is unofficial, lol. So by end of week 11, I *should* be 195+ morning weight.

195 morning weight was my goal from the start, and now that I have achieved this goal, I am not sure if I will extend the cycle to 14 weeks or call it quits at 12 weeks like originally planned. I will see what happens within the next few weeks and make a decision then.

**Mr_Prop_var_Testen** · 10-14-2012, 02:39 PM

U look monstrous good job man!!!
U'll be a beast when u do a cutting cycle if u decide to...

**Trying-Hard** · 10-14-2012, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mr_Prop_var_Testen

U look monstrous good job man!!!
U'll be a beast when u do a cutting cycle if u decide to...

Thanks bro.

I don't think I am big enough to cut. When I do cut, I would like to be at 190 lbs and about 10%. Not sure how long it will take me to get there, but I am not quittin...=)

**Trying-Hard** · 10-15-2012, 07:06 AM

I am about 90% sure that I am going to stop cycling at 12 weeks now. Looking to dose HCG like the following:

Week 11: 250IU x3 (M/W/F)
Week 12: Same as above (last test cyp injection on 10/24)

Week 13: 500IU x3 (M/W/F)
Week 14: Start PCT w/ SERMS on 11/7 (No HCG injections this week)

I will keep on taking an AI up until the day of PCT, then drop it.

PCT
Clomid: 100/50/50/50
Nolva: 40/40/20/20
Creatine 5g ed

If anyone sees anything wrong with this or recommends a better alternative, please let me know. Thanks.

**ANIMAL** · 10-15-2012, 07:54 AM

You can really see it in your back! Good job dude! Legs look good too! That's great that you met your goal. Don't be a stranger once you're completely finished around here.

**Trying-Hard** · 10-15-2012, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by ANIMAL

You can really see it in your back! Good job dude! Legs look good too! That's great that you met your goal. Don't be a stranger once you're completely finished around here.

Thanks a lot, bro. I will most certainly be sticking around..=)

**Swifto** · 10-15-2012, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

I am about 90% sure that I am going to stop cycling at 12 weeks now. Looking to dose HCG like the following:

Week 11: 250IU x3 (M/W/F)
Week 12: Same as above (last test cyp injection on 10/24)

Week 13: 500IU x3 (M/W/F)
Week 14: Start PCT w/ SERMS on 11/7 (No HCG injections this week)

I will keep on taking an AI up until the day of PCT, then drop it.

PCT
Clomid: 100/50/50/50
Nolva: 40/40/20/20
Creatine 5g ed

If anyone sees anything wrong with this or recommends a better alternative, please let me know. Thanks.

HCG twice per week, not 3x.

PCT is 5-6 weeks, not 4.