Socialist economies are competitive

[Phreak101]

Why is minimum wage detrimental to the economy? I suck at economy

I mean Im sure alot of economists are republicans over there, but alot of economists are socialist over here...

Simple. Let's say you raise the minimum wage 2 dollars an hour. Now imagine a company has 2,000,000 hourly employees. That's 4,000,000 dollars an HOUR in wage increases the company has to pay out. If you imagine a 40 hour week, 50 weeks a year..

$80,000,000 * 50wks a year = 4 BILLION dollars a year a company has to spend to pay its workers more. That cost will be passed on to the consumer in the form of hiogher prices, which then makes people say "I can't afford my groceries! I need a higher minimum wage! I can't afford to live!" I'd MUCH rather see that 4 billion dollars used to hire MORE workers, be put in to R&D, be put in to mfg., etc.

Raising the minimum wage is a downward economic spiral, and all it does is allow more regulation by the government, and stifle the free market.

Phreak says.."Fvck that!" to government regulation!

[scriptfactory]

Simple. Let's say you raise the minimum wage 2 dollars an hour. Now imagine a company has 2,000,000 employees. That's 4,000,000 dollars an HOUR in wage increases the company has to pay out. If you imagine a 40 hour week, 50 weeks a year..

$80,000,000 * 50wks a year = 4 BILLION dollars a year a company has to spend to pay its workers more. That cost will be passed on to the consumer in the form of hiogher prices, which then makes people say "I can't afford my groceries! I need a higher minimum wage! I can't afford to live!" I'd MUCH rather see that 4 billion dollars sued to higher MORE workers, be put in to R&D, be put in to mfg., etc.

Raising the minimum wage is a downward economic spiral, and all it does is allow more regulation by the government, and stifle the free market.

Phreak says.."Fvck that!" to government regulation!

You are hilarious!!! Do you know a company that has 2 million employees working at minimum wage?

BTW, they wouldn't have to raise the wages of all of their employees, only the ones working for under minimum wage... yeah...

[scriptfactory]

I'm done arguing with you. Your country's exmployment rate is utter shit, and your SS program is just as broke as ours. You have no stance to point fingers, especially since you are an ex-patriate. When you can show numbers that prove your system works instead basing everything you say on opinionated communist theory, then we can argue some more. until then, I'm not going to convince you, and vice-versa, so let's agree to disagree.

Nice. Germany is not my country, I am not a citizen here. I only have a visa... I hate to live here because Germans are rude as hell. In fact, I've only been living and working in the German economy since 2003. I visit the US frequently (since it IS my country). You can't deal with my arguments so you call me an ex-patriate and a communist.

Good job! You shouldn't feel embarassed at all...

[Phreak101]

You are hilarious!!! Do you know a company that has 2 million employees working at minimum wage?

BTW, they wouldn't have to raise the wages of all of their employees, only the ones working for under minimum wage... yeah...

Walmart has about 900,000. Yum Foods has about 1 million. They are both grocery companies that will universally pass higher prices to the consumer. Now what?

[Phreak101]

Nice. Germany is not my country, I am not a citizen here. I only have a visa... I hate to live here because Germans are rude as hell. In fact, I've only been living and working in the German economy since 2003. I visit the US frequently (since it IS my country). You can't deal with my arguments so you call me an ex-patriate and a communist.

Good job! You shouldn't feel embarassed at all...

I don't! I support free marktet! Your arguments are shit, so I choose not to deal with them, plain and simple.

You're done, so am I.

[RA]

Im no economist but I dont see another country footing as large a bill at the U.N. or The "International Space Station" or any relief effort that takes place anywhere. Just to name a few...

[Phreak101]

[QUOTE=scriptfactory]Nice. Germany is not my country, I am not a citizen here. I only have a visa... I hate to live here because Germans are rude as hell. QUOTE]

I'll be sure to scartch Germany off my place to visit, I dodn't know they were all rude.

[scriptfactory]

Walmart has about 900,000. Yum Foods has about 1 million. They are both grocery companies that will universally pass higher prices to the consumer. Now what?

I know for a fact Wal*Mart does not have 900,000 employees working at minimum wage. In fact, I worked for WM when I was 16yo and make much more than minimum wage (about $3 more.) The average worker at WM makes $9.50 and they have around 1.5 million employees, I believe.

Not sure about Yum Foods but if you have a link supporting your claims I would like to see it.

[Phreak101]

I know for a fact Wal*Mart does not have 900,000 employees working at minimum wage. In fact, I worked for WM when I was 16yo and make much more than minimum wage (about $3 more.) The average worker at WM makes $9.50 and they have around 1.5 million employees, I believe.

Not sure about Yum Foods but if you have a link supporting your claims I would like to see it.

Find them yourself if you're that interested, this is stupid.

[scriptfactory]

Find them yourself if you're that interested, this is stupid.

That's awesome. You call me a liar and then make up some BS facts supporting your views.

Great debate. Too bad Logan wasn't here to help you. Then you might not have needed to resort to lies.

[Phreak101]

That's awesome. You call me a liar and then make up some BS facts supporting your views.

Great debate. Too bad Logan wasn't here to help you. Then you might not have needed to resort to lies.

Look them up, they are not lies. I have my inet access blocked at work, and AR is one of three sites I can get on, which is why I'm on here all day. Im stopping this because this is exactly why the political forum was shut down, know-it-alls like you will argue till they are blue in the face to prove to whomever is listening that they are right. Get a hobby.

I don't want to be a part of this section being shut down as well, and I recommend you try the same.

[scriptfactory]

Look them up, they are not lies. I have my inet access blocked at work, and AR is one of three sites I can get on, which is why I'm on here all day. Im stopping this because this is exactly why the political forum was shut down, know-it-alls like you will argue till they are blue in the face to prove to whomever is listening that they are right. Get a hobby.

I don't want to be a part of this section being shut down as well, and I recommend you try the same.

Just admit you were

BTW, the political forum was shut down because of other reasons, not "know-it-alls".

[Kärnfysikern]

Im no economist but I dont see another country footing as large a bill at the U.N. or The "International Space Station" or any relief effort that takes place anywhere. Just to name a few...

Depends if we talk % of countries GDP or just plain sum

[Phreak101]

Just admit you were

BTW, the political forum was shut down because of other reasons, not "know-it-alls".

You'd like that wouldn't you? Online arguing sounds like a hobby of yours...

You gave your stats, I gave mine, no one can be right in an argument of opinion, but keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel better.

Last post from me in this thread.

[scriptfactory]

You'd like that wouldn't you? Online arguing sounds like a hobby of yours...

You gave your stats, I gave mine, no one can be right in an argument of opinion, but keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel better.

Last post from me in this thread.

The only difference is I backed all of my stats up, guy. I really hope you refrain from posting in this thread because you got

[Phreak101]

The only difference is I backed all of my stats up, guy. I really hope you refrain from posting in this thread because you got

I'll post one more. You're a loser...nuff said. See my factbook post, says it all. Johan is right, Germany has done well since the eastern bloc came back over to the light side, but results speak for themselves. All one needs to do is compare the GDP and unemployment levels of the US and Germany, and they can see that all your "facts" about socialism that you have used to back up your argument simply do not hold water, and are just theory. They are plenty of arguments FOR socialism, but to argue that socialistic programs > capitalistic programs, ESPECIALLY in the US, just doesn't work, the numbers show it. The US is the most powerful economy in the world, bar none. You can't deny that, and it's obvious.

State all the theories you want, but the facts are there, and when FACTS are there, that, my friend, is being

Now get back to your to the hammer and sickle, I on your socialism.

[Kärnfysikern]

Dont start any name calling there is no need for it. Just chill and relax!

Phreak, script. you are both good bros so dont turn it personal.

[Kärnfysikern]

My argument for socialism is far from a economic one, Its about how we want to treat people and what peoples role in society is, what people can expect from society and what responsibilities people have towards society.

Many social programs are run in poor ways in sweden, that doesnt mean the social programs are fundamentaly flawed. They just need to be updated and applied differently.

If it means I have to pay a bit more for products, pay a bit more in tax and earn a bit less cash Im willing to make that tradeoff in order to assure no one in my country has to live in utter poverty or starve. Some lazy bums will take advantage of that, its inevitable. But most of the people that have to turn to social programs are mostly those that happen to run into a string of bad luck and was fortunate enough to have those safety nets to catch them.

I have been forced to live on social security twice in my life. First time was for half a year when I could not stand living with my alcoholic bum for a dad anymore, not after he had threatened to kill me, so I just needed the means to survive on my own until I finished high school and could move and start university. The second time was just for a month when I could not find any job, had no money at all and could not get unemployment cash. That month I had to turn to social security because otherwise I wouldnt have had either food on the table or money to pay my rent.

Those kind of situations is what the social programs are all about. As a safety net to ordinary people that fall on hard times from time to time. Its not suposed to be a permanent way of living and it should be designed in a way such that no one could live on it for a extended period of time either.

But I think most people are exactly like myself, that they consider it a disgrace to have to "beg" for money in that way. So for the most part I am confident the money goes to people that need it.

I consider minimum wage as a part of that, to ensure no one has to work for more than 40 hours a week to survive, its unhumane and has no place in modern societies. Life is a whole lot more than just work. Money should not be the sole purpose of life and society should be inclined in a way that places the emphasis of quality of life not quantity of cash.

I dont agree with alot of state regulations on buisness or state meddling in the buissnes of the avarage joe, in alot of ways I am libertarian. Or well I am a social liberal. But the state need to ensure that companies can not treat employees like shit.

[Phreak101]

Dont start any name calling there is no need for it. Just chill and relax!

Phreak, script. you are both good bros so dont turn it personal.

True, no need for ir. My apologies script, but I still stand by my point. No need for gloating from either side.

[scriptfactory]

My argument for socialism is far from a economic one, Its about how we want to treat people and what peoples role in society is, what people can expect from society and what responsibilities people have towards society.

Many social programs are run in poor ways in sweden, that doesnt mean the social programs are fundamentaly flawed. They just need to be updated and applied differently.

If it means I have to pay a bit more for products, pay a bit more in tax and earn a bit less cash Im willing to make that tradeoff in order to assure no one in my country has to live in utter poverty or starve. Some lazy bums will take advantage of that, its inevitable. But most of the people that have to turn to social programs are mostly those that happen to run into a string of bad luck and was fortunate enough to have those safety nets to catch them.

I have been forced to live on social security twice in my life. First time was for half a year when I could not stand living with my alcoholic bum for a dad anymore, not after he had threatened to kill me, so I just needed the means to survive on my own until I finished high school and could move and start university. The second time was just for a month when I could not find any job, had no money at all and could not get unemployment cash. That month I had to turn to social security because otherwise I wouldnt have had either food on the table or money to pay my rent.

Those kind of situations is what the social programs are all about. As a safety net to ordinary people that fall on hard times from time to time. Its not suposed to be a permanent way of living and it should be designed in a way such that no one could live on it for a extended period of time either.

But I think most people are exactly like myself, that they consider it a disgrace to have to "beg" for money in that way. So for the most part I am confident the money goes to people that need it.

I consider minimum wage as a part of that, to ensure no one has to work for more than 40 hours a week to survive, its unhumane and has no place in modern societies. Life is a whole lot more than just work. Money should not be the sole purpose of life and society should be inclined in a way that places the emphasis of quality of life not quantity of cash.

I dont agree with alot of state regulations on buisness or state meddling in the buissnes of the avarage joe, in alot of ways I am libertarian. Or well I am a social liberal. But the state need to ensure that companies can not treat employees like shit.

Excellent post. Thanks.

[Prada]

An argument is futile. There is no right or wrong economic system. There is only a more beneficial system for an individual based on their interpretation, needs, including quality of life. Its quite complex to determine what the `best` system is. To subjective.

[Phreak101]

An argument is futile. There is no right or wrong economic system. There is only a more beneficial system for an individual based on their interpretation, needs, including quality of life. Its quite complex to determine what the `best` system is. To subjective.

YES!

[scriptfactory]

An argument is futile. There is no right or wrong economic system. There is only a more beneficial system for an individual based on their interpretation, needs, including quality of life. Its quite complex to determine what the `best` system is. To subjective.

Definitely right. It is highly subjective.

Socialism is pro humanity.
Capitalism is pro currency.

It's a difficult decision for a lot of people to make.

[RA]

Depends if we talk % of countries GDP or just plain sum

[Logan13]

You are hilarious!!! Do you know a company that has 2 million employees working at minimum wage?

BTW, they wouldn't have to raise the wages of all of their employees, only the ones working for under minimum wage... yeah...

So if new employees are making minimum wage ($5.15/hr) and then get a $2/hr wage hike to $7.15/hr, do you not think that those who have been there for awhile making $7.50/hr are not going to be pissed and insist on a wage hike as well? Than if they get a raise to say $9/hr, those who are making $9.50 are gonna get pissed, etc, etc, etc..............

[scriptfactory]

So if new employees are making minimum wage ($5.15/hr) and then get a $2/hr wage hike to $7.15/hr, do you not think that those who have been there for awhile making $7.50/hr are not going to be pissed and insist on a wage hike as well? Than if they get a raise to say $9/hr, those who are making $9.50 are gonna get pissed, etc, etc, etc..............

That doesn't matter. If they don't like it then they can hit the road. Who cares if they are pissed. Furthermore, a company doesn't have to tell an employee how much their co-workers are making... Minimum wage laws were implemented successfully in the UK with absolutely no effect on employment rates so people weren't getting pissed enough to quit their jobs, obviously.

[RA]

Definitely right. It is highly subjective.

Socialism is pro humanity.
Capitalism is pro currency.

It's a difficult decision for a lot of people to make.

Not me. Capitalism all the way...

[breacherup]

one year at the top of one list does not mean much.

[Kärnfysikern]

one year at the top of one list does not mean much.

ohh its far more than a year, the nordic countries has been on the top for a long time

[J.S.N.]

Simple. Let's say you raise the minimum wage 2 dollars an hour. Now imagine a company has 2,000,000 hourly employees. That's 4,000,000 dollars an HOUR in wage increases the company has to pay out. If you imagine a 40 hour week, 50 weeks a year..

$80,000,000 * 50wks a year = 4 BILLION dollars a year a company has to spend to pay its workers more. That cost will be passed on to the consumer in the form of hiogher prices, which then makes people say "I can't afford my groceries! I need a higher minimum wage! I can't afford to live!" I'd MUCH rather see that 4 billion dollars used to hire MORE workers, be put in to R&D, be put in to mfg., etc.

Raising the minimum wage is a downward economic spiral, and all it does is allow more regulation by the government, and stifle the free market.

Phreak says.."Fvck that!" to government regulation!

the free market is not so free. if i could only find a job making $2.50 a hour because there's no minimum wage, i think i would start robbing people very quickly. but how is it one person can be free to exclude others while the other isn't free to take what they have? it's hypocrisy pure and simple.

[Phreak101]

the free market is not so free. if i could only find a job making $2.50 a hour because there's no minimum wage, i think i would start robbing people very quickly. but how is it one person can be free to exclude others while the other isn't free to take what they have? it's hypocrisy pure and simple.

You're assuming that's what you would be paid regardless. The competition amongst employers for workers would overshadow ripping all of them off. If Lowe's pays it's emloyees 6 dollars an hour and Home Depot pays 10, Lowe's will lose all it's (valuable) employees to Home Depot.

It's the Nash Equilibrium. The mathematics and numbers behind it find that companies that work together for the greater good of the industry in both expenses and profits do better. Besides, if everyone was making $2.50 an hour, no one could afford to live, therefore the companies would not be making any profits due to lack of sales. It is in a company's best interest to make sure their employees make enough money to turn around and spend it again.

[J.S.N.]

You're assuming that's what you would be paid regardless. The competition amongst employers for workers would overshadow ripping all of them off. If Lowe's pays it's emloyees 6 dollars an hour and Home Depot pays 10, Lowe's will lose all it's (valuable) employees to Home Depot.

It's the Nash Equilibrium. The mathematics and numbers behind it find that companies that work together for the greater good of the industry in both expenses and profits do better. Besides, if everyone was making $2.50 an hour, no one could afford to live, therefore the companies would not be making any profits due to lack of sales. It is in a company's best interest to make sure their employees make enough money to turn around and spend it again.

and how, pray tell, does that apply to the real world? you can work "full time" (39.5hrs.) at a place like wal-mart and home depot right now for minimum wage and not make enough money to support yourself, much less a spouse and 2.5 kids, much less china where it's so much worse.

[Logan13]

That doesn't matter. If they don't like it then they can hit the road. Who cares if they are pissed. Furthermore, a company doesn't have to tell an employee how much their co-workers are making... Minimum wage laws were implemented successfully in the UK with absolutely no effect on employment rates so people weren't getting pissed enough to quit their jobs, obviously.

it would be naive to think that co-workers do not discuss pay rates amongst each other. These are things which management needs to keep in mind since an employee who thinks he is not being paid fairly will become less productive. Regardless, how many American adults are actually making minimum wage, I mean really? Kids detassling corn at the end of summer make more than that per hour. If there are truely men with families out there who are only making $5.15/hour than I would be inclined to believe that it is because they do not wish to work harder than the $5.15/hour position that they currently hold. Kids working at Dairy Queen make that kind of money, so the question than becomes, who will benefit from the minimum wage hike and who will be hurt by it. In the end, the consumer will be hurt by it........and we are all consumers guys!

[Kärnfysikern]

Its also naive to think that the major companies would not work togheter to keep salaries down if they had the chanse. How long did it take for child labor to be abandoned? How hard to the kids in the shoe factories in asia work for the pennies a month?

The major companies would **** every employee they had twice if they could make a legal profit out of it. So would I if I where in charge of a company since my duty would be to the stock holders not those employed by me.

[Logan13]

Its also naive to think that the major companies would not work togheter to keep salaries down if they had the chanse. How long did it take for child labor to be abandoned? How hard to the kids in the shoe factories in asia work for the pennies a month?

The major companies would **** every employee they had twice if they could make a legal profit out of it. So would I if I where in charge of a company since my duty would be to the stock holders not those employed by me.

What the hell does this have to do with the minimum wage scale here in America? Your international labor questions need to be addressed to those 3rd world countries that allow this to occur. Like it or not, less than 1% of US workers who have dependents make minimum wage. Again, the question becomes who would gain by an American minimum wage hike? The democratic politicians who bring it up as a topic in their platform would be the correct answer.
It is the same problem that the Unions have brought upon the US. They raise labor rates so high that large companies are forced to move overseas. I work in the construction industry(supply side). Who would you hire to finish your concrete Johan, a union finisher who gets paid $33.50/hour ($69,680/year) or a non-union finisher who gets paid $14/hour($29,120/year)? Does the union really think that concrete finishing is a job that is truely worth $70K/year? The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports the average annual wages in the U.S. as $36,764 for 2002. Real median earnings of men age 15 and older who worked full-time, year-round in 2003 ($40,668) -source: U.S. Census Bureau

-Logan13

[J.S.N.]

if a concrete finsihing job isn't worth that i'd hate to see what a middle manager is worth.

[Chad B]

Socialism turns into communism which turns into Nazi Germany…Then by our blood we Capitalists will come save you.

Communism good theory, would work if we were in heaven and there was no sin.

You can not starve in USA all you need to do is go to a church and they give you food.

Just because you work harder and make more money doesn’t mean you should be penalized with more taxes. If you want to give more you should be able to do it by your own free will, not be forced by the government. FREEDOM. This is why we Americans have all the private organizations helping and giving more food and such to the world than any other country. All of our main governments could care less

If your government and mine really really cared there would not be hundreds of children raped and dieing from starvation and genocide in Africa daily. If all our countries gave troops to go in there, 2 million troops would stop the genocide in a day, but there is no oil there.

[Logan13]

Dont start any name calling there is no need for it. Just chill and relax!

Phreak, script. you are both good bros so dont turn it personal.

True, both good guys and add much too many threads. Anabolic first, ethnic and political second. Most of those who put ethnic and political first are thankfully gone now!

[Logan13]

Socialism turns into communism which turns into Nazi Germany…Then by our blood we Capitalists will come save you.

Communism good theory, would work if we were in heaven and there was no sin.

You can not starve in USA all you need to do is go to a church and they give you food.

Just because you work harder and make more money doesn’t mean you should be penalized with more taxes. If you want to give more you should be able to do it by your own free will, not be forced by the government. FREEDOM. This is why we Americans have all the private organizations helping and giving more food and such to the world than any other country. All of our main governments could care less

If your government and mine really really cared there would not be hundreds of children raped and dieing from starvation and genocide in Africa daily. If all our countries gave troops to go in there, 2 million troops would stop the genocide in a day, but there is no oil there.

true.......

[scriptfactory]

What the hell does this have to do with the minimum wage scale here in America? Your international labor questions need to be addressed to those 3rd world countries that allow this to occur. Like it or not, less than 1% of US workers who have dependents make minimum wage. Again, the question becomes who would gain by an American minimum wage hike? The democratic politicians who bring it up as a topic in their platform would be the correct answer.
It is the same problem that the Unions have brought upon the US. They raise labor rates so high that large companies are forced to move overseas. I work in the construction industry(supply side). Who would you hire to finish your concrete Johan, a union finisher who gets paid $33.50/hour ($69,680/year) or a non-union finisher who gets paid $14/hour($29,120/year)? Does the union really think that concrete finishing is a job that is truely worth $70K/year? The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports the average annual wages in the U.S. as $36,764 for 2002. Real median earnings of men age 15 and older who worked full-time, year-round in 2003 ($40,668) -source: U.S. Census Bureau

-Logan13

You do realize that there are 8 million Americans (citizens, not illegals) working for under $7.25/hour right? That less than $15,000 annually when working full time. You do realize that isn't enough money for anyone to live on, right? Half of these people making so little are older than 24 years old and half are also the primary income earners for their families.

That is messed up...