You want the Gov to stay out of your business? Want to make Gear legal?

[convalescence69]

Yeah, I just seen that. Intriguing results.
I honestly didn't expect Paul to do well in Iowa, that is religious country and Huckster there ran quite a few religious ads, and Romney did a lot of pandering to the mass there.
The light side of it, Dr.Paul was polling lower than Giuliani in that state and he still beat out Giuliani, and he didn't come in too far behind Thompson and McCain either.
I expect better results from New Hampshire, a far more libertarian state. There are more Libertarians and Independents in NH than any other state, and Huckabee is polling very low there, so I don't see him winning that state.

[Logan13]

Yeah, I just seen that. Intriguing results.
I honestly didn't expect Paul to do well in Iowa, that is religious country and Huckster there ran quite a few religious ads, and Romney did a lot of pandering to the mass there.
The light side of it, Dr.Paul was polling lower than Giuliani in that state and he still beat out Giuliani, and he didn't come in too far behind Thompson and McCain either.
I expect better results from New Hampshire, a far more libertarian state. There are more Libertarians and Independents in NH than any other state, and Huckabee is polling very low there, so I don't see him winning that state.

As of today, McCain and Romney are leading in NH by fairly high margins.
John McCain 31.3%
Mitt Romney 28.8%
Rudy Giuliani 10%
Huckabee 9.5%
Paul 7%
Thompson 2%

Clinton 32%
Obama 26%
John Edwards 20%
Richardson 6%
Biden 2.5%

[Logan13]

ABC Cuts 3 From Presidential Debates

NEW YORK (AP) - ABC News is eliminating Republican presidential candidate Duncan Hunter and Democrats Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel from its prime- time presidential debates Saturday night because they did not meet benchmarks for their support.

The Democratic debate three days before the New Hampshire primary will include Iowa caucus winner Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Bill Richardson. It starts at 7 p.m. EDT.

Before the Democrats take the stage in Manchester, N.H., Republicans Mike Huckabee, John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson, Mitt Romney and Ron Paul will hold their own forum.

ABC anchor Charles Gibson will moderate both debates.

The network set up benchmarks to narrow the field. Candidates had to meet at least one of three criteria: place first through fourth in Iowa, poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major New Hampshire surveys, or poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major national surveys.

ABC said the rules were quite inclusive, and that none of the candidates objected ahead of time. Its decision was made easier by Democrats Joe Biden and Chris Dodd dropping out of the race Thursday night.

"In previous debates where the stage was more crowded you had to make sure all of the candidates got equal time," said David Chalian, ABC News political director. "Here you will have more time to go in depth on the issues."

[convalescence69]

Yeah, I was glad to see Paul wasn't cut out of that debate.
Those poll numbers are misleading though, the Iowa numbers were different than what actually happend. Paul was like 3% there and ended up with 10, and Giuliani got a lot less than he did too.
Some of the Paul supporters are bummed about Iowa, but I am telling them, it wasn't expected that he'd win that state to begin with and he did far better than expected, by himself, and others. Don't get discouraged, NH is right around the corner and I expect a much better turnout. If not though, time to prepare to jump ship, move to Norway or something.....

[Logan13]

01/05/08
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...blican_primary
GOP:
McCain 31%
Romney 26%
Ron Paul 14%
Mike Huckabee 11%
Rudy Giuliani 8%
Fred Thompson 5%

Dem:
Obama 37%
Clinton 27%
John Edwards 19%
Bill Richardson 8%

Personally, I would love to see a McCain/Lieberman Presidential ticket.......

[Logan13]

Yeah, I was glad to see Paul wasn't cut out of that debate.
Those poll numbers are misleading though, the Iowa numbers were different than what actually happend. Paul was like 3% there and ended up with 10, and Giuliani got a lot less than he did too.
Some of the Paul supporters are bummed about Iowa, but I am telling them, it wasn't expected that he'd win that state to begin with and he did far better than expected, by himself, and others. Don't get discouraged, NH is right around the corner and I expect a much better turnout. If not though, time to prepare to jump ship, move to Norway or something.....

On a historical note, Perot received 7-9% support in nationwide polls in 1992.

[alphaman]

I just found this thread, as I don't come to the lounge much anymore. If I come to AR at all, I just check the news forum (what's left of the PRW forum from back in the good ol days lol).

But I wanted to commend you, convalescence69, for your conviction and action. I waffled on who I was going to support for some time. Although I don't agree with everything Ron Paul says, I'll be voting for him if he's still in the game when they come around my way. I actually just posted something in the news forum about him today with some vids on his views on monetary policy.

Go Paul!!!

And Logan... W...T....F??? You know my background and I don't think Huckabee is the man for the job. You surprised me on that one... Are you settling for second best??? lol

[Logan13]

I just found this thread, as I don't come to the lounge much anymore. If I come to AR at all, I just check the news forum (what's left of the PRW forum from back in the good ol days lol).

But I wanted to commend you, convalescence69, for your conviction and action. I waffled on who I was going to support for some time. Although I don't agree with everything Ron Paul says, I'll be voting for him if he's still in the game when they come around my way. I actually just posted something in the news forum about him today with some vids on his views on monetary policy.

Go Paul!!!

And Logan... W...T....F??? You know my background and I don't think Huckabee is the man for the job. You surprised me on that one... Are you settling for second best??? lol

You did not read the entire thread........
"Personally, I would love to see a McCain/Lieberman Presidential ticket......."

[alphaman]

You did not read the entire thread........
"Personally, I would love to see a McCain/Lieberman Presidential ticket......."

I spent a bit of time reading the entire thread and I did see that... my bad...


Plus... after I psted in here... I glanced at the lounge... lotta political threads up in here.... surprising. Things must be easing up a bit...

[Logan13]

I spent a bit of time reading the entire thread and I did see that... my bad...


Plus... after I psted in here... I glanced at the lounge... lotta political threads up in here.... surprising. Things must be easing up a bit...

Suprisingly, most have been able to discuss such topics without being too abrasive. Which is good since it is such an important topic!

[convalescence69]

I just found this thread, as I don't come to the lounge much anymore. If I come to AR at all, I just check the news forum (what's left of the PRW forum from back in the good ol days lol).

But I wanted to commend you, convalescence69, for your conviction and action. I waffled on who I was going to support for some time. Although I don't agree with everything Ron Paul says, I'll be voting for him if he's still in the game when they come around my way. I actually just posted something in the news forum about him today with some vids on his views on monetary policy.

Go Paul!!!

Hey, thanks a bunch man. Things been suckin at home lately, the morale boost came through at the right time. Shows how much you can cheer a preson's day with just a comment.

[Timm1704]

great thread, and I hope all your support works out. I have seen several informational pieces on Ron Paul, and he seems like he wants to change the direction of america for the better. If only us here in England could get a leader with balls

[Logan13]

Hey, thanks a bunch man. Things been suckin at home lately, the morale boost came through at the right time. Shows how much you can cheer a preson's day with just a comment.

I like how so many in here are able to open up in this forum. Hope everything is getting better on the homefront.

[convalescence69]

Lot of it is money. I graduated from college recently and no one is hiring. The unemployment rate is so frikken high, it's understandable. The only interview I got was for, what they called "Promotions", they made it sound very legitimate, like i would set up a booth and be informative about something important. The first day of work they drove me out to the middle of nowhere and wanted me to hussle car wax to passing motorists, and there wasn't even hourly pay, it was some kind of pyramid thing. When I said I wasn't interested they wouldn't take me back to my car. So I spent 6 hrs out in the sun wearing a suit before I got a ride home. Totally sucked.

Being destitute can be a big motivator in observing what's happening in politics.
Maybe if things get real bad the public will be more motivated in learning whats going on and try to change it.

[Logan13]

Lot of it is money. I graduated from college recently and no one is hiring. The unemployment rate is so frikken high, it's understandable. The only interview I got was for, what they called "Promotions", they made it sound very legitimate, like i would set up a booth and be informative about something important. The first day of work they drove me out to the middle of nowhere and wanted me to hussle car wax to passing motorists, and there wasn't even hourly pay, it was some kind of pyramid thing. When I said I wasn't interested they wouldn't take me back to my car. So I spent 6 hrs out in the sun wearing a suit before I got a ride home. Totally sucked.

Being destitute can be a big motivator in observing what's happening in politics.
Maybe if things get real bad the public will be more motivated in learning whats going on and try to change it.

unemployment is at 5% as of Friday. Is it higher where you live? What degree do you have?
What kind of money do you need to make right now?

[convalescence69]

I was pretty amazed to see this. It's Ron Paul in 1983 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GzRWSof8uQ
Guy is amazing. Consistent, and amazing.

[alphaman]

Lot of it is money. I graduated from college recently and no one is hiring. The unemployment rate is so frikken high, it's understandable. The only interview I got was for, what they called "Promotions", they made it sound very legitimate, like i would set up a booth and be informative about something important. The first day of work they drove me out to the middle of nowhere and wanted me to hussle car wax to passing motorists, and there wasn't even hourly pay, it was some kind of pyramid thing. When I said I wasn't interested they wouldn't take me back to my car. So I spent 6 hrs out in the sun wearing a suit before I got a ride home. Totally sucked.

Being destitute can be a big motivator in observing what's happening in politics.
Maybe if things get real bad the public will be more motivated in learning whats going on and try to change it.

with the effort you've displayed in this thread and a college degree... I assure you that you can get a WELL PAYING job. especially if you can sell. if you want some ideas, pm me.

here is a good clip of paul responding to his not being invited to the fox forum in NH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB9kbhCW1Og

[Maldorf]

Lot of it is money. I graduated from college recently and no one is hiring. The unemployment rate is so frikken high, it's understandable. The only interview I got was for, what they called "Promotions", they made it sound very legitimate, like i would set up a booth and be informative about something important. The first day of work they drove me out to the middle of nowhere and wanted me to hussle car wax to passing motorists, and there wasn't even hourly pay, it was some kind of pyramid thing. When I said I wasn't interested they wouldn't take me back to my car. So I spent 6 hrs out in the sun wearing a suit before I got a ride home. Totally sucked.

Being destitute can be a big motivator in observing what's happening in politics.
Maybe if things get real bad the public will be more motivated in learning whats going on and try to change it.

My wife works for a bank, she is a lender, and they just closed down her office. We personally know 2 other people that were laid off too in the banking industry. The banking industry is surely feeling it. The housing market is lousy too, and the US dollar and stock market continue to drop.

[Logan13]

My wife works for a bank, she is a lender, and they just closed down her office. We personally know 2 other people that were laid off too in the banking industry. The banking industry is surely feeling it. The housing market is lousy too, and the US dollar and stock market continue to drop.

Over the past 10 years is seems that there was a new bank opening every damn day. The market is just adjusting. Sorry that your wife lost her job because of it though.

[alphaman]

You can thank Greenspan for lowering the overnight rate to 1% and encouraging lenders to come up with more "creative" sub-prime lending pracitces. It will correct itself.

The fact of the matter is... less than 1% of mortgages are in default. It just looks bad because everyone wants to get rid of the dead weight (bad loans) now so they look golden in the coming months for wallstreet. Longterm baby... longterm.

[convalescence69]

Watching the results of the primary in NH....
I love that guy, Ron Paul, but it's not lookin good. Our previous discussion about getting the hell outta here may sound like the alternative. Can't beat the architect's of their own system from within the system. Picking up arms doesn't seem like a viable alternative either.
Every man woman and child in this country, in relation to our nearing 10 trillion dollar national debt, is 30,000 dollars in debt to the gov. The best way to shrug that off..... leave. Changing policy seems damn near impossible. The gov spends too much and we can't get them to stop.
I haven't given up on Dr. Paul yet, and regardless of how many vote for him, it doesn't make him wrong either. Voting is not about who's right, its about who gets the most votes. Get a buncha people in a room that believe the sky is red, make'em vote, does not make the sky red. You can call a cat a fish but it will not swim.
I think NH was Dr.Paul's best chance to win a state, with that gone, I don't know what else to think. Perhaps my optimism will recieve a boost from something in the near future... I hope.
I still say, GO GO Ron Paul! an amazing person.

[Maldorf]

Over the past 10 years is seems that there was a new bank opening every damn day. The market is just adjusting. Sorry that your wife lost her job because of it though.

It was JPMorgan Chase, I think rated at the number 2 or 3 bank in the country too. Not some fly by night bank. Its not going to be easy to replace her salary here either, we are probably looking at having to move south somewhere. Dallas and North Carolina are looking good now. Had some other large banks pull out of our area too. Its not looking promising here, lenders are not wanting to do the smaller commercial loans anymore. ANything under 30 million or so is too small.

[alphaman]

Watching the results of the primary in NH....
I love that guy, Ron Paul, but it's not lookin good. Our previous discussion about getting the hell outta here may sound like the alternative. Can't beat the architect's of their own system from within the system. Picking up arms doesn't seem like a viable alternative either.
Every man woman and child in this country, in relation to our nearing 10 trillion dollar national debt, is 30,000 dollars in debt to the gov. The best way to shrug that off..... leave. Changing policy seems damn near impossible. The gov spends too much and we can't get them to stop.
I haven't given up on Dr. Paul yet, and regardless of how many vote for him, it doesn't make him wrong either. Voting is not about who's right, its about who gets the most votes. Get a buncha people in a room that believe the sky is red, make'em vote, does not make the sky red. You can call a cat a fish but it will not swim.
I think NH was Dr.Paul's best chance to win a state, with that gone, I don't know what else to think. Perhaps my optimism will recieve a boost from something in the near future... I hope.
I still say, GO GO Ron Paul! an amazing person.

I know a lot of people said that if he runs as an iindependant he would just take the amount of conservative votes needed for hillary to get the job, but I bet he would take just as many from the dems... people who realize the financial situation we're in and know the dems will only make it worse.

[Spartan0503]

i like alot of what ron paul says, but he turns me off with some of his insane, outlandish statements. he said abraham lincoln never should have gone to war. what the hell is he talking about??

[alphaman]

Go Ron Paul!!!!!!

[convalescence69]

i like alot of what ron paul says, but he turns me off with some of his insane, outlandish statements. he said abraham lincoln never should have gone to war. what the hell is he talking about??

Ah, that was on Meet the Press. I recall what was said there, that did damage his electability, but it was just an intellectual perspective. The interviewer tried to maneuver him into saying something Fvcked up about slavery. He said that we didn't have to go to war to end slavery, so the interviewer positioned it to make him seem absurd, saying something like "so you think it'd be ok to still have slavery? we'd still have slavery if he (Lincoln)didn't do that", something like that, I recall. Ron Paul said "look at the world now, come on, many other countries did away with slavery without going to war".
A failing of Dr. Paul I think is his over intellectualism of sensitive issues. In this situation, he is absolutely correct, however that is NOT what the american public wants to hear about something so serious and sensitive in our history. What Dr. Paul said is true, in any potential conflict, there are other options and avenues of diplomacy. If slavery didn't end through arms it would have ended through other means, but the american public would never want to even question the notion of such a thing, as to do so would seem ludicrious and even insulting. It is an emotional issue.
Americans appear to care more about the charisma of a leader than his intelligence. What we have to hope for is that the charisma that is there in whoever we elect is partnered with at least a modicum of intelligence. Our current president is an example of charisma and a lack of intelligence. Bush's public appeal, as many of those that voted for him have said, was that they felt they could "drink a beer with him", a more identfiable person. Clinton also had a disarming nature, and a southern charm, but thankfully he was very smart on top of it.
Ron Paul is overly smart (he is a physician for gods sakes (the only PHD/MD among ALL the candidates running) and overly honest. I never thought something like that could work against a person.
So, in closing, his questioning of policy, no matter the time in history, shows a level of intellectualism that exceeds that of prudence. Positively speaking, his perception of the civil war does show that he is willing to think seriously about any issue and consider all options, but the american public cares not to drudge through long ago concluded controversial topics, even on an intellectual "what'if" level.

[Maldorf]

I agree, maybe we should elect David Hasselhof as president! Or maybe Fabio!

[Amorphic]

I agree, maybe we should elect David Hasselhof as president! Or maybe Fabio!

[convalescence69]

another thing I'd like to add, about the civil war... Technically, it was the biggest disregard for the constitution ever. If you think about it a moment, there was a very large percentage of the country that wanted out, and in our constitution there is a clause for that, saying we are not to oppress and if that is the wish then they are free to go after a vote. Instead the gov used force of arms to suppress the "rebels", which isn't exactly the right term I think since there were enough of them to make huge standing armies of thousands of men.
In the movie Gettysburg there is a scene with one of the southern generals talking to a foreign observer and he describes their situation as this, "Imagine you are part of a gentlements club and you decide you want to leave, but they won't let you and use violence to get you to stay".
Despite what some may say, Slavery was not the whole reason for their wanting to secede from the union. There were many disagreements about the state's rights and economic freedom.
Do not mistake me, as I wish not to make the same mistake as Ron Paul by not being clear, I am in no way saying Slavery was a good thing, and I do think it is worth fighting for its abolition. Just wanted to be clear on that.

[Maldorf]

It has been found for Obama and Ron Paul that their hand counted votes were higher than the digital vote count, so they received less votes than they should have. Mitt Romney had a lower hand count than digital, and so received more votes than he shoul have.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqE-y3M1Qs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=737Vo...eature=related

[alphaman]

Looks like Ron Paul won the text vote agian for the Fox debate.

[convalescence69]

Holy crap, wow, I've never seen Ron Paul so fired up, GO RON PAUL!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY01Lpg5kqw

[Kärnfysikern]

Ron Paul is overly smart (he is a physician for gods sakes (the only PHD/MD among ALL the candidates running) and overly honest. I never thought something like that could work against a person.

Intellectual people rarely seem to do well in politics unless they can dumb down their message. I guess because quite frankly most people are morons

[convalescence69]

Alright, here, watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cucn32Eja3c
The moderators of the debate lastnight were asking Ron Paul awful questions, just rude, like this one. Nonetheless, he shined. The clip above, I think was a very strong response on Ron Paul's electability, but guess what.... they edited this question out of the debate reruns they've had on today. OMFGWTF I hate fox.
Here is another question they asked him that was downright rude and ridiculous, but again, Ron Paul shined http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHVBPNGOJp8

On top of that, Ron Paul won the text message vote for lastnight's debate, but Hannity professed there was no way he won it, and instead Fox brought on their own "voter panel" that said Ron Paul was no good.

I am truly astounded... over 70% of americans want us out of the war, they want it over, but somehow, all of the frontrunners, in either party, have made it known they would keep the war going. Even Hillary and Obama said they couldn't bring all the troops home for another 4-5 years.
SO the majority of americans want the war over but somehow they are supporting people that won't end it??? Something is WTF'ed up in the land of Fvcked up.

[Maldorf]

Nobody else think there is voter fraud going on here?!

[Logan13]

It was JPMorgan Chase, I think rated at the number 2 or 3 bank in the country too. Not some fly by night bank. Its not going to be easy to replace her salary here either, we are probably looking at having to move south somewhere. Dallas and North Carolina are looking good now. Had some other large banks pull out of our area too. Its not looking promising here, lenders are not wanting to do the smaller commercial loans anymore. ANything under 30 million or so is too small.

That's just crazy. Small business drives this country. Where do you live?

[Logan13]

Alright, here, watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cucn32Eja3c
The moderators of the debate lastnight were asking Ron Paul awful questions, just rude, like this one. Nonetheless, he shined. The clip above, I think was a very strong response on Ron Paul's electability, but guess what.... they edited this question out of the debate reruns they've had on today. OMFGWTF I hate fox.
Here is another question they asked him that was downright rude and ridiculous, but again, Ron Paul shined http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHVBPNGOJp8

On top of that, Ron Paul won the text message vote for lastnight's debate, but Hannity professed there was no way he won it, and instead Fox brought on their own "voter panel" that said Ron Paul was no good.

I am truly astounded... over 70% of americans want us out of the war, they want it over, but somehow, all of the frontrunners, in either party, have made it known they would keep the war going. Even Hillary and Obama said they couldn't bring all the troops home for another 4-5 years.
SO the majority of americans want the war over but somehow they are supporting people that won't end it??? Something is WTF'ed up in the land of Fvcked up.

They did ask some rather rude questions. It is crazy how Paul gets all of the applause from the debate audiences, gets rated as winning the debate via the online votes, yet does not bring in enough votes to even land in the top four in the primaries. I do not think voter fraud is to blame, but I can't say why he makes such a poor showing at the ballot box........
Some of Paul's stances are just too isolationist for many. Alot of his ideas are great in theory, but would not hold water in reality.

[alphaman]

Alot of his ideas are great in theory, but would not hold water in reality.

Could you name specfic examples and explain why they don't hold water?

[convalescence69]

What really rips me is his response to the question about his electability, it was a great response, and then they edited it out of the reruns. Godamn am I fumed about that.
U.S. borrows 10 billion from China. U.S. gives 10 billion to Musharrif, a muslim dictator that overthrew an elected government. Then we go to Iraq to fight for Democracy....
Equivalent situation on a personal level - Guy takes out a 10,000 dollar loan and gives it to a brutal gang leader, then the guy goes to another ghetto and shoots at other gang members trying to get them to be more civilized.

[convalescence69]

They did ask some rather rude questions. It is crazy how Paul gets all of the applause from the debate audiences, gets rated as winning the debate via the online votes, yet does not bring in enough votes to even land in the top four in the primaries. I do not think voter fraud is to blame, but I can't say why he makes such a poor showing at the ballot box........
Some of Paul's stances are just too isolationist for many. Alot of his ideas are great in theory, but would not hold water in reality.

Ron Paul is getting votes from the tech savvy internet users that make a point to stay informed. This is roughly 10% of the population, which appears to be what he is getting so I guess it's about right. I was filled with optimism, but after NH, I dunno where it's going now. Considering that he was 1 and 2% a few months ago I think it is a huge improvement, but still needing a vast improvement beyond that to stand a chance.
About the poor showing at the ballot box. I live here in the south, grew up in a southern country boot area (I NEVER picked up on that stuff), and considering what those people are like, I really do believe they like the idea of "kicking ass" on the "evil people". They loved shooting things, animals and such, thought it was a riot, and they were a buncha racist's on top of it. Many have not changed. During the initial invasion of Iraq, I'd seen them around (I am a cordial fellow, I make a point to be pleasant and not burn bridges unless i have to) so I asked them what they thought, as I like to do with people of different backgrounds. The responses I got from the redneckie people was "Fvck'em, lets blow'em up, dumb ass sand ni*gers".
Huckabee was talking during the last debate and he said something about Iran and how he'd "open the gates of hell" on them if they tried something, everyone cheered loudly. Perfect strategy on his part, that totally played to the religious right, and also to the people that are like the ones aforementioned in the description above. "Blow'em up, fvck'em, thats what they get for fvckin with america!".
I have tried talking to people like that about U.S. foreign policy. They are ill informed and very quick to take offense. Say the wrong thing and you're likely to get into a tussle, as they like to do, being a badge of toughness. It follows suit with the mentality, "not taking sh^t from anyone", and it extends into their perception of politics. People like that, all you have to do is convince them there is just cause to "kick ass" and they are all for it.
One thing about their fighting habits though that I do appreciate, they fight solo, even if its over dumbass reasons. I made the mistake of getting into a fight with a "wigger" type of person in highschool, before i knew it I was being practically lynched by like 20 of his homies. Anyways /rant off