I tried to buy a Firearm and the sale was placed “on hold”

[C27H40O3]

Pretty easy. It says front toward enemy on it.

That was the point of my joke.

[C27H40O3]

So by that logic, I should be able to drive a car even if I’ve had 10 DUIs because it’s your responsibility to not get hit by my car when I’m driving.

Actually, i dont believe in locking up folks for what they might do. The BAC limit used to be 0.15 until sometime in the 70's. It got progressively lower since then. the human body has not changed. cars have gotten safer since then. not more dangerous. what has changed to necessitate bringing the number down? Nothing that I can see. except lobbying. Mothers against drunk driving gives donations to lawmakers, and awards to cops and police departments and it has corrupted the system. The organization itself has been corrupted so much so that the original "mother" who started it has left in disgust, saying that rather than being against drunk driving, they actually have become a pro-abstinence organization, desiring to stamp out drinking all together.

They actually argue against logic that since .08 so negligibly affects folks driving ability, that we should have more checkpoint to catch folks. They completely miss the fact that if .08 doesnt have a tangible effect on driving, then we are needlessly criminalizing a generation of folks.

How does restricting who can buy guns affect law abiding citizens? They will get their guns whether they have to wait 20 minutes or 2 Days.

If someone is a paranoid schizophrenic that hallucinates and talks to the devil, I would hope their medical history and the fact that they’ve been previously institutionalized should prevent them from buying assault rifles. Maybe I’m just crazy.

Because many law abiding citizens can get caught up in that bureaucratic swamp and get denied. You got stressed with your mother twenty years ago as a teenager, maybe your father or someone else just died. You get checked into a hospital psych ward to get your thoughts together. Thats all it takes. no guns for the rest of your life.

[GearHeaded]

C27 ... sometimes I disagree with you a ton and sometimes you make some damn good points

its a corrupt system to criminalize more people and make more money and they use the false front "to save lives" .


everything is a crime now and over regulated so they can fund their corrupt criminal justice system and make more $$..
having one beer after work and driving home will land you in jail and cost you $12k in DUI fees and other bullshit to ruin your life.

heck you can't even get into a basic argument and fist to fist bar fight with someone without being charged with assault.

the world is filled with a bunch of pussies and the justice system makes more and more laws every day to criminalize and enslave as many people as possible

[Test Monsterone]

Actually, i dont believe in locking up folks for what they might do. The BAC limit used to be 0.15 until sometime in the 70's. It got progressively lower since then. the human body has not changed. cars have gotten safer since then. not more dangerous. what has changed to necessitate bringing the number down? Nothing that I can see. except lobbying. Mothers against drunk driving gives donations to lawmakers, and awards to cops and police departments and it has corrupted the system. The organization itself has been corrupted so much so that the original "mother" who started it has left in disgust, saying that rather than being against drunk driving, they actually have become a pro-abstinence organization, desiring to stamp out drinking all together.

They actually argue against logic that since .08 so negligibly affects folks driving ability, that we should have more checkpoint to catch folks. They completely miss the fact that if .08 doesnt have a tangible effect on driving, then we are needlessly criminalizing a generation of folks.



Because many law abiding citizens can get caught up in that bureaucratic swamp and get denied. You got stressed with your mother twenty years ago as a teenager, maybe your father or someone else just died. You get checked into a hospital psych ward to get your thoughts together. Thats all it takes. no guns for the rest of your life.

I’m not talking about locking up people, I’m just talking about restricting their privileges to drive on public roads funded by the collective community.

One possible reason why the alcohol limit changed is that in 1970 there were 200 million cars in the world, and in 2018 there were 274 million cars in just the US. More cars and more people leads to higher risk of accidents.

I believe each individual situation should be analyzed and decided. I don’t agree that if someone had one incident at some point, that it should ban them from owning weapons forever.

We live in a society, and we cannot just let everyone do what they want. If we allow everything, then the system we built collapses and anarchy ensues.

I’m not sure what some people want... but it seems some would take anarchy over a regulated democracy.

[The road]

Somebody breaks into my house:
Alexa says welcome to the rice paddy mother fucker
Then plays welcome to the jungle
That’s when the roomba comes out with a claymore strapped to the top.

Lmfao thats fucking awesome

[Beetlegeuse]

When you're selecting a firearm for SD/HD, you need to take a hard, cold look at the mechanics of what you hope to accomplish when you shoot somebody, then critically assess whether your choice can meet those goals.

According to the "school solution," a gunshot wound can incapacitate in one of three ways.

The first is psychological incapacitation. A certain percentage of people will wig out at the mere realization that they've been shot, regardlss of the fact that it might be an inconsequential wound. Others will pass out at the sight of just a few drops of (anybody's) blood. Some people will lose it if they see a pint of their blood on the floor. But some people have been shot and/or stabbed dozens of times but stayed in the fight.

So psychological incapacitation will take some people out of the fight but not with sufficient certainty to warrant risking your life on it.

The second way is hypovolemic shock. Rapid loss of roughly 20% of total blood volume will cause unconsciousness. In a 200# 6-foot-2 man, that comes to about 2-1/2 pints of blood. The body's natural responses to rapid, massive blood loss will cause acidosis and hypoxemia, which is likely to cause uunconsciousness if not death.

The most lucrative targets for producing hypovolemic shock are the major blood-bearing organs because the heart, liver and kidneys are surrounded by dense bundles of blood vessels and arteries. However, hypovolemic shock never comes on instantaneously. It always takes some seconds to kick in. In the spate of guillotinings that followed the French Revolution, men of science had abundant opportunities to test freshly severed heads for consciousness and voluntary action. Their accounts pretty consistently concluded that even a bodyless head can respond for as long as 15 seconds. I can't think of a wound that would produce more rapid exsanguination than decapitation, so if you're relying on blood loss you shouldn't count on the guy you've just shot to stop fighting back for at least 15 seconds no matter how much blood is squirting out of him.

And the third means of incapacitation is by trauma to the central nervous system. Sever the spinal cord above mid-thorax, disrupt both hemispheres of the brain, or destroy the brain stem (the medulla oblongata) and the fight is over right now.

The problem with a CNS hit is targeting. The spinal column is basically a garden hose-sized structure and a difficult shot under best of circumstances. The brain is a bigger target but it's also somewhat shielded by the skull, which is a strong enough structure to deflect a bullet that doesn't strike it squarely. And people have been known to get shot but only in one hemisphere of the brain and remain conscious and active. In fact there have been people who tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the temple but only managed to blow out both frontal lobes, essentially performing a non-fatal self-lobotomy.

The brain stem is also a very small target -- about the size of an apricot -- and is protected from a frontal shot by the skull and/or jaw. But if it's available and you've got the skill to hit it, it's the ideal shot because the medulla controls all the autonomic systems. Without it your heart won't beat, your lungs won't breathe and your reflexes don't even work.

Playing the odds, some SD shooting training classes teach to target the "golden triange," the region outlined by a line connecting the nipples and the tip of the nose.



The golden triangle is outlined in lime green. Inside it are the heart, the aortas, the vena cavas, the brachial arteries, the subclavian arteries, the carotid arteries, the jugular veins, the upper thoracaic spine, the entire cervical spine, the windpipe, and if you could penetrate enough bone mass to get to it, the brain stem. So if you shoot someone in the golden triangle and don't break something they can't live without, you just ain't trying hard enough.

The heart, which is always a prime target, lies behind about six inches beneath the skin. But that's only if the target has his shoulders square to you and his heart is about the same level as your gun. Unfortunately for you, the bad guy probably won't oblige you by standing with his shoulders square. And since this whole scenario was initiated by a kill-or-be-killed struggle, you might find yourself flat on the ground before you can work out that you're being attacked and can produce your firearm.



In fact it's much more likely that you'll have to penetrate nine to 12 inches of flesh and bone to reach the heart. In the FBI's after-action report to the disasterous 1986 Miami shootout, the author ( Special Agent Urey Patrick) wrote in part:

...The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging....

... and later ...

...Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed....

.

SA Patrick's dismissiveness of kinetic energy leads me to add that the only time "energy" ever killed anybody was when they were struck by lightning or took a ride on Ol' Sparky. This is the sig from some random guy on a random gun forum that I found utterly brilliant: "The Gospel of KE: proposed by the ignorant, parroted by the unknowing, and evangelized by those who failed high school physics.... " It boggles the mind why shooters are so invested in KE, other than the fact that they think it makes them sound learned to drop KE into a ballistics conversation.

Back on topic, SA Patrick's report is why the FBI established a new standard for bullet performance at a minimum of 12" penetration in calibrated 10% ballistic gel, and a maximum of 18". And that new standard not only remains in effect today, it is largely the reason for the resurgence of the 9mm Luger as a self-defense cartridge. Because it is pure marketing magic to be able to advertise that the FBI uses your bullets, so everybody who makes bullets is designing and testing bullets to sell to the SD/HD market to meet the FBI's new standard. Which is the most comprehensive testing standard of any organization I've ever come across.

If the bad guy comes at you 'bladed' (like in the second target, above), standing sideways to present one shoulder or the other, you've first got to shoot through his latissimus, the ribcage, and the tissues of the lung on that side to reach his heart. Or you might be on your ass (or hands and knees) on the ground, in which case you'll have to target the heart by aiming at his abdomen. And once again, the bullet will have to penetrate well more than six inches of tissue.

Which is why birdshot is a really bad choice for a self-defense load. Because even at contact range it still won't penetrate 12".

Why? What a lot of even old-time shooters don't get is that a sphere (a single buckshot pellet) has really shitty aerodynamics. That's one of the biggest reasons why we largely abandoned spherical projectiles in rifles and pistols more than 160 years ago. Because not only does shitty aerodynamics mean that it looses a lot of velocity in flight, drag varies with the square of the change in viscosity of the medium the projectile is passing through. Human flesh has vastly higher viscosity than air, plus it has a great deal of elasticity, so bad aerodynamics vastly limits the ability of a spherical projectile to penetrate flesh.*

*The Brown Bess muskets of the Revolutionary War shattered bones and produced hideous wounds but they fired positively YUGE .69-caliber balls weighing more than 10x as much as a 00 buckshot pellet. And they usually only engaged at no more than 50 yards. So there's that.

And the key point to remember here is that this all started because your life was in danger. If that hadn't been the case you'd have had no justification under the law for for discharging a firearm in his direction in the first place. Even if you blow the bad guy's hand off his wrist, he still isn't necessarily incapacitated, meaning your life still might be in danger. You might have maimed him but that alone doesn't guarantee your safety is secured. The only way to eliminate the threat to a certainty is to at least incapacitate (if not outright kill) your attacker. And birdshot is not certain to do that unless you press the muzzle against his spinal column (upper thoracic or higher) or the base of his skull. And he probably won't volunteer to stand still long enough for you to do that.

On the other hand, one of the cardinal rules of combat is to always engage your enemy from the maximum standoff range that the terrain or your your weapon system will allow. Anything from #1 buckshot and larger will let you shoot from clean on the other side of the room and still guarantee 12" of penetration.

[Beetlegeuse]

I'm in agreement with Testosterone about the efficacy of locking people up for their BAC when there is no evidence of impaired driving. I know people who are professional drunks who drive more safely after drinking a case of beer than some little old blue-haired ladies will after a single mimosa at a Sunday brunch.

This is a no-shit story. The XO of a unit I was in in the army found the Warrant Officer who was supposed to be on Charge of Quarters duty (CQ) absent from his post, so he went out searching and found him at a serviceman's club, knocking back a few brewskis. The XO administered two -- count 'em, two! -- field sobriety tests to the individual, both of which he passed. Then he ordered the Warrant to get into his vehicle and follow him to the post hospital for a blood alcohol test. The XO watched him in his rear view the entire trip (a couple of miles) and never noted his driving to be erratic.

His BAC was 0.38. I saw the paperwork from the Provost Marshall's office, zero-point-three-friggin'-eight!!! And his speech wasn't slurred, he could walk a straight line and stand balancing on one foot.

Hell, I'm about as inflexible a law-and-order guy as you're likely to find but I think the BAC without evidence of impairment is nothing but a plot by Temperance Unionists and Southern Baptists to stop people from drinking altogether.

[Capebuffalo]

Failure to stop aka Mozambique drill. I shoot it instinctively now. Two to the chest one to the head.

[The road]

When you're selecting a firearm for SD/HD, you need to take a hard, cold look at the mechanics of what you hope to accomplish when you shoot somebody, then critically assess whether your choice can meet those goals.

According to the "school solution," a gunshot wound can incapacitate in one of three ways.

The first is psychological incapacitation. A certain percentage of people will wig out at the mere realization that they've been shot, regardlss of the fact that it might be an inconsequential wound. Others will pass out at the sight of just a few drops of (anybody's) blood. Some people will lose it if they see a pint of their blood on the floor. But some people have been shot and/or stabbed dozens of times but stayed in the fight.

So psychological incapacitation will take some people out of the fight but not with sufficient certainty to warrant risking your life on it.

The second way is hypovolemic shock. Rapid loss of roughly 20% of total blood volume will cause unconsciousness. In a 200# 6-foot-2 man, that comes to about 2-1/2 pints of blood. The body's natural responses to rapid, massive blood loss will cause acidosis and hypoxemia, which is likely to cause uunconsciousness if not death.

The most lucrative targets for producing hypovolemic shock are the major blood-bearing organs because the heart, liver and kidneys are surrounded by dense bundles of blood vessels and arteries. However, hypovolemic shock never comes on instantaneously. It always takes some seconds to kick in. In the spate of guillotinings that followed the French Revolution, men of science had abundant opportunities to test freshly severed heads for consciousness and voluntary action. Their accounts pretty consistently concluded that even a bodyless head can respond for as long as 15 seconds. I can't think of a wound that would produce more rapid exsanguination than decapitation, so if you're relying on blood loss you shouldn't count on the guy you've just shot to stop fighting back for at least 15 seconds no matter how much blood is squirting out of him.

And the third means of incapacitation is by trauma to the central nervous system. Sever the spinal cord above mid-thorax, disrupt both hemispheres of the brain, or destroy the brain stem (the medulla oblongata) and the fight is over right now.

The problem with a CNS hit is targeting. The spinal column is basically a garden hose-sized structure and a difficult shot under best of circumstances. The brain is a bigger target but it's also somewhat shielded by the skull, which is a strong enough structure to deflect a bullet that doesn't strike it squarely. And people have been known to get shot but only in one hemisphere of the brain and remain conscious and active. In fact there have been people who tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the temple but only managed to blow out both frontal lobes, essentially performing a non-fatal self-lobotomy.

The brain stem is also a very small target -- about the size of an apricot -- and is protected from a frontal shot by the skull and/or jaw. But if it's available and you've got the skill to hit it, it's the ideal shot because the medulla controls all the autonomic systems. Without it your heart won't beat, your lungs won't breathe and your reflexes don't even work.

Playing the odds, some SD shooting training classes teach to target the "golden triange," the region outlined by a line connecting the nipples and the tip of the nose.



The golden triangle is outlined in lime green. Inside it are the heart, the aortas, the vena cavas, the brachial arteries, the subclavian arteries, the carotid arteries, the jugular veins, the upper thoracaic spine, the entire cervical spine, the windpipe, and if you could penetrate enough bone mass to get to it, the brain stem. So if you shoot someone in the golden triangle and don't break something they can't live without, you just ain't trying hard enough.

The heart, which is always a prime target, lies behind about six inches beneath the skin. But that's only if the target has his shoulders square to you and his heart is about the same level as your gun. Unfortunately for you, the bad guy probably won't oblige you by standing with his shoulders square. And since this whole scenario was initiated by a kill-or-be-killed struggle, you might find yourself flat on the ground before you can work out that you're being attacked and can produce your firearm.



In fact it's much more likely that you'll have to penetrate nine to 12 inches of flesh and bone to reach the heart. In the FBI's after-action report to the disasterous 1986 Miami shootout, the author ( Special Agent Urey Patrick) wrote in part:



... and later ...

.

SA Patrick's dismissiveness of kinetic energy leads me to add that the only time "energy" ever killed anybody was when they were struck by lightning or took a ride on Ol' Sparky. This is the sig from some random guy on a random gun forum that I found utterly brilliant: "The Gospel of KE: proposed by the ignorant, parroted by the unknowing, and evangelized by those who failed high school physics.... " It boggles the mind why shooters are so invested in KE, other than the fact that they think it makes them sound learned to drop KE into a ballistics conversation.

Back on topic, SA Patrick's report is why the FBI established a new standard for bullet performance at a minimum of 12" penetration in calibrated 10% ballistic gel, and a maximum of 18". And that new standard not only remains in effect today, it is largely the reason for the resurgence of the 9mm Luger as a self-defense cartridge. Because it is pure marketing magic to be able to advertise that the FBI uses your bullets, so everybody who makes bullets is designing and testing bullets to sell to the SD/HD market to meet the FBI's new standard. Which is the most comprehensive testing standard of any organization I've ever come across.

If the bad guy comes at you 'bladed' (like in the second target, above), standing sideways to present one shoulder or the other, you've first got to shoot through his latissimus, the ribcage, and the tissues of the lung on that side to reach his heart. Or you might be on your ass (or hands and knees) on the ground, in which case you'll have to target the heart by aiming at his abdomen. And once again, the bullet will have to penetrate well more than six inches of tissue.

Which is why birdshot is a really bad choice for a self-defense load. Because even at contact range it still won't penetrate 12".

Why? What a lot of even old-time shooters don't get is that a sphere (a single buckshot pellet) has really shitty aerodynamics. That's one of the biggest reasons why we largely abandoned spherical projectiles in rifles and pistols more than 160 years ago. Because not only does shitty aerodynamics mean that it looses a lot of velocity in flight, drag varies with the square of the change in viscosity of the medium the projectile is passing through. Human flesh has vastly higher viscosity than air, plus it has a great deal of elasticity, so bad aerodynamics vastly limits the ability of a spherical projectile to penetrate flesh.*

*The Brown Bess muskets of the Revolutionary War shattered bones and produced hideous wounds but they fired positively YUGE .69-caliber balls weighing more than 10x as much as a 00 buckshot pellet. And they usually only engaged at no more than 50 yards. So there's that.

And the key point to remember here is that this all started because your life was in danger. If that hadn't been the case you'd have had no justification under the law for for discharging a firearm in his direction in the first place. Even if you blow the bad guy's hand off his wrist, he still isn't necessarily incapacitated, meaning your life still might be in danger. You might have maimed him but that alone doesn't guarantee your safety is secured. The only way to eliminate the threat to a certainty is to at least incapacitate (if not outright kill) your attacker. And birdshot is not certain to do that unless you press the muzzle against his spinal column (upper thoracic or higher) or the base of his skull. And he probably won't volunteer to stand still long enough for you to do that.

On the other hand, one of the cardinal rules of combat is to always engage your enemy from the maximum standoff range that the terrain or your your weapon system will allow. Anything from #1 buckshot and larger will let you shoot from clean on the other side of the room and still guarantee 12" of penetration.

This is true but you are forgetting shock factor.
100% of the energy is displaced on the target.

Do a quick test...
Take a pine 4x4 2 foot long and shoot it with bird shot from 10'.
Now do the same with a 9mm

The bird shot will send the board to pieces or send it flying 30'.

The 9mm will knock it down and pass through not exerting a 10th the shock.

If you shoot a doped up person at 10-15 feet anywhere in the torso with birdshot they are done. Incapacitated on impact.

[The road]

Heres a prime example...

Ft lbs of energy is about equal in a custom load 30-30 and an off the shelf 400 gr 45-70.

One is the gun of choice for grizzly bears and one is the gun of choice for whitetail.

There is a lot more to takedown than just ft lbs of energy and penetration.

[Capebuffalo]

Heres a prime example...

Ft lbs of energy is about equal in a custom load 30-30 and an off the shelf 400 gr 45-70.

One is the gun of choice for grizzly bears and one is the gun of choice for whitetail.

There is a lot more to takedown than just ft lbs of energy and penetration.

.470 ne using a 500-grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps for 5,132 ft.-lbs. of energy. Just FYI.

[The road]

the Idea of birdshot is to not pass through so ypu dont have to worry about your kids in the room over.

A short semi auto 12 guage with bird shot is a great home defense weapon.

I have killed everything that walked or crawled

[The road]

Used to put bulls down with a 22 lr.

[Capebuffalo]

the Idea of birdshot is to not pass through so ypu dont have to worry about your kids in the room over.

A short semi auto 12 guage with bird shot is a great home defense weapon.

I have killed everything that walked or crawled

Rock salt

[C27H40O3]

One possible reason why the alcohol limit changed is that in 1970 there were 200 million cars in the world, and in 2018 there were 274 million cars in just the US. More cars and more people leads to higher risk of accidents.

You cant just make that assumption. What about the thousands of miles of new and improved roads brought up to modern safety standards, and better handling cars with anti-lock brakes, power steering, power brakes as standard on all models and all the other improvements in the last 50 years.

I believe each individual situation should be analyzed and decided. I don’t agree that if someone had one incident at some point, that it should ban them from owning weapons forever.

I concur.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[C27H40O3]

the Idea of birdshot is to not pass through so ypu dont have to worry about your kids in the room over.

A short semi auto 12 guage with bird shot is a great home defense weapon.

I have killed everything that walked or crawled

About three years ago, my 80 year old father wanted something for home protection that wouldn’t kill the neighbor next door sleeping if he had to use it. I got him that cheap mossburg clone pump, with number 9 shot in it. With it loaded under the couch he sleeps on, he sleeps good now. He has been shooting most of his life, and gave up most of his guns when he had grandchildren running around the house. Now they are all grown, and he wanted a 12ga pump again. I kept the 870 he gave me when i was a kid, so i had to replace it for him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GearHeaded]

About three years ago, my 80 year old father wanted something for home protection that wouldn’t kill the neighbor next door sleeping if he had to use it.

the idea that your going to kill the neighbor next to you for defending yourself is total bullshit and false to get you to think you should all have cheap ass pump shotguns with bird shot in it ,, meanwhile the cops/military etc. are rolling around with AR15s , Ar10 , 308s and Glocks on their side ..

don't be so deceived.. yeah a cheap ass shotgun from cheap ass china filled filled with cheap ass bird shot all bought at your cheap ass Walmarts may look proficient against a few birds or doors or whatever these you tubers come up with .. but its a trick to de arm you from the shit that really works

[GearHeaded]

Used to put bulls down with a 22 lr.

you would of had a better time if you used a 50 BMG

[Proximal]

When you're selecting a firearm for SD/HD, you need to take a hard, cold look at the mechanics of what you hope to accomplish when you shoot somebody, then critically assess whether your choice can meet those goals.

According to the "school solution," a gunshot wound can incapacitate in one of three ways.

The first is psychological incapacitation. A certain percentage of people will wig out at the mere realization that they've been shot, regardlss of the fact that it might be an inconsequential wound. Others will pass out at the sight of just a few drops of (anybody's) blood. Some people will lose it if they see a pint of their blood on the floor. But some people have been shot and/or stabbed dozens of times but stayed in the fight.

So psychological incapacitation will take some people out of the fight but not with sufficient certainty to warrant risking your life on it.

The second way is hypovolemic shock. Rapid loss of roughly 20% of total blood volume will cause unconsciousness. In a 200# 6-foot-2 man, that comes to about 2-1/2 pints of blood. The body's natural responses to rapid, massive blood loss will cause acidosis and hypoxemia, which is likely to cause uunconsciousness if not death.

The most lucrative targets for producing hypovolemic shock are the major blood-bearing organs because the heart, liver and kidneys are surrounded by dense bundles of blood vessels and arteries. However, hypovolemic shock never comes on instantaneously. It always takes some seconds to kick in. In the spate of guillotinings that followed the French Revolution, men of science had abundant opportunities to test freshly severed heads for consciousness and voluntary action. Their accounts pretty consistently concluded that even a bodyless head can respond for as long as 15 seconds. I can't think of a wound that would produce more rapid exsanguination than decapitation, so if you're relying on blood loss you shouldn't count on the guy you've just shot to stop fighting back for at least 15 seconds no matter how much blood is squirting out of him.

And the third means of incapacitation is by trauma to the central nervous system. Sever the spinal cord above mid-thorax, disrupt both hemispheres of the brain, or destroy the brain stem (the medulla oblongata) and the fight is over right now.

The problem with a CNS hit is targeting. The spinal column is basically a garden hose-sized structure and a difficult shot under best of circumstances. The brain is a bigger target but it's also somewhat shielded by the skull, which is a strong enough structure to deflect a bullet that doesn't strike it squarely. And people have been known to get shot but only in one hemisphere of the brain and remain conscious and active. In fact there have been people who tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the temple but only managed to blow out both frontal lobes, essentially performing a non-fatal self-lobotomy.

The brain stem is also a very small target -- about the size of an apricot -- and is protected from a frontal shot by the skull and/or jaw. But if it's available and you've got the skill to hit it, it's the ideal shot because the medulla controls all the autonomic systems. Without it your heart won't beat, your lungs won't breathe and your reflexes don't even work.

Playing the odds, some SD shooting training classes teach to target the "golden triange," the region outlined by a line connecting the nipples and the tip of the nose.



The golden triangle is outlined in lime green. Inside it are the heart, the aortas, the vena cavas, the brachial arteries, the subclavian arteries, the carotid arteries, the jugular veins, the upper thoracaic spine, the entire cervical spine, the windpipe, and if you could penetrate enough bone mass to get to it, the brain stem. So if you shoot someone in the golden triangle and don't break something they can't live without, you just ain't trying hard enough.

The heart, which is always a prime target, lies behind about six inches beneath the skin. But that's only if the target has his shoulders square to you and his heart is about the same level as your gun. Unfortunately for you, the bad guy probably won't oblige you by standing with his shoulders square. And since this whole scenario was initiated by a kill-or-be-killed struggle, you might find yourself flat on the ground before you can work out that you're being attacked and can produce your firearm.



In fact it's much more likely that you'll have to penetrate nine to 12 inches of flesh and bone to reach the heart. In the FBI's after-action report to the disasterous 1986 Miami shootout, the author ( Special Agent Urey Patrick) wrote in part:



... and later ...

.

SA Patrick's dismissiveness of kinetic energy leads me to add that the only time "energy" ever killed anybody was when they were struck by lightning or took a ride on Ol' Sparky. This is the sig from some random guy on a random gun forum that I found utterly brilliant: "The Gospel of KE: proposed by the ignorant, parroted by the unknowing, and evangelized by those who failed high school physics.... " It boggles the mind why shooters are so invested in KE, other than the fact that they think it makes them sound learned to drop KE into a ballistics conversation.

Back on topic, SA Patrick's report is why the FBI established a new standard for bullet performance at a minimum of 12" penetration in calibrated 10% ballistic gel, and a maximum of 18". And that new standard not only remains in effect today, it is largely the reason for the resurgence of the 9mm Luger as a self-defense cartridge. Because it is pure marketing magic to be able to advertise that the FBI uses your bullets, so everybody who makes bullets is designing and testing bullets to sell to the SD/HD market to meet the FBI's new standard. Which is the most comprehensive testing standard of any organization I've ever come across.

If the bad guy comes at you 'bladed' (like in the second target, above), standing sideways to present one shoulder or the other, you've first got to shoot through his latissimus, the ribcage, and the tissues of the lung on that side to reach his heart. Or you might be on your ass (or hands and knees) on the ground, in which case you'll have to target the heart by aiming at his abdomen. And once again, the bullet will have to penetrate well more than six inches of tissue.

Which is why birdshot is a really bad choice for a self-defense load. Because even at contact range it still won't penetrate 12".

Why? What a lot of even old-time shooters don't get is that a sphere (a single buckshot pellet) has really shitty aerodynamics. That's one of the biggest reasons why we largely abandoned spherical projectiles in rifles and pistols more than 160 years ago. Because not only does shitty aerodynamics mean that it looses a lot of velocity in flight, drag varies with the square of the change in viscosity of the medium the projectile is passing through. Human flesh has vastly higher viscosity than air, plus it has a great deal of elasticity, so bad aerodynamics vastly limits the ability of a spherical projectile to penetrate flesh.*

*The Brown Bess muskets of the Revolutionary War shattered bones and produced hideous wounds but they fired positively YUGE .69-caliber balls weighing more than 10x as much as a 00 buckshot pellet. And they usually only engaged at no more than 50 yards. So there's that.

And the key point to remember here is that this all started because your life was in danger. If that hadn't been the case you'd have had no justification under the law for for discharging a firearm in his direction in the first place. Even if you blow the bad guy's hand off his wrist, he still isn't necessarily incapacitated, meaning your life still might be in danger. You might have maimed him but that alone doesn't guarantee your safety is secured. The only way to eliminate the threat to a certainty is to at least incapacitate (if not outright kill) your attacker. And birdshot is not certain to do that unless you press the muzzle against his spinal column (upper thoracic or higher) or the base of his skull. And he probably won't volunteer to stand still long enough for you to do that.

On the other hand, one of the cardinal rules of combat is to always engage your enemy from the maximum standoff range that the terrain or your your weapon system will allow. Anything from #1 buckshot and larger will let you shoot from clean on the other side of the room and still guarantee 12" of penetration.

Really great anatomical references B. I’ve said that before with a video that you posted on the other thread.

[Proximal]

The sternum is a bitch of a bone to go through. But go a bit higher and a touch to the side, the subclavian arteries are a nice target. If you hit direct midline above the sternum, you will devastate the spinal cord so the medulla cannot send signals to the heart and lungs = death.

[C27H40O3]

the idea that your going to kill the neighbor next to you for defending yourself is total bullshit and false to get you to think you should all have cheap ass pump shotguns with bird shot in it ,, meanwhile the cops/military etc. are rolling around with AR15s , Ar10 , 308s and Glocks on their side ..

don't be so deceived.. yeah a cheap ass shotgun from cheap ass china filled filled with cheap ass bird shot all bought at your cheap ass Walmarts may look proficient against a few birds or doors or whatever these you tubers come up with .. but its a trick to de arm you from the shit that really works

Cops are over armed often. that is another issue.

A .223 will go through the cheap walls of my cheap house and cross my 9 foot wide driveway and go right into my neighbor's bedroom window three feet from my driveway. we dont all live on a huge golfcourse like you. in urban areas, the houses are close. my whole propertry is only on a 40x100 lot. i smell what me neighbor is cooking every night she has her window open.

My neighbors sleep about 30 feet from where i would be blasting an intruder entering my kitchen or front door. An AR or AK would be way overkill for my needs. his house is the same nearby me.

[The road]

the idea that your going to kill the neighbor next to you for defending yourself is total bullshit and false to get you to think you should all have cheap ass pump shotguns with bird shot in it ,, meanwhile the cops/military etc. are rolling around with AR15s , Ar10 , 308s and Glocks on their side ..

don't be so deceived.. yeah a cheap ass shotgun from cheap ass china filled filled with cheap ass bird shot all bought at your cheap ass Walmarts may look proficient against a few birds or doors or whatever these you tubers come up with .. but its a trick to de arm you from the shit that really works

None of those calibers have the takedown power of birdshot at ten feet.

Do the 4×4 test and you will understand. I live in a duplex.
A 22 short would hit my neighbor.

[C27H40O3]

https://timesofsandiego.com/crime/20...-through-wall/


Poway Man Charged with Killing Sleeping Neighbor by Shot Through Wall

Murder and other felony charges were filed Wednesday against a 20-year-old probationer who allegedly fired a gunshot toward his brother, missing him but inadvertently killing a next-door neighbor asleep in his bed.

Manuula Save is accused in the Saturday morning death of Michael Walker, 38, who was shot about 1:45 a.m. by a bullet that traveled through a bedroom wall in the defendant’s apartment and into the victim’s unit in the 13400 block of Midland Road. Walker was hit once in the abdomen and died at a hospital about an hour later.

Save then allegedly hid the 9mm firearm, which he was not allowed to possess due to a previous hit-and-run conviction involving the death of an elderly woman, Nikoletich said. Save was sentenced to probation in that case, she said.

[The road]

#8 birdshot vs common wall.

[GearHeaded]

Cops are over armed often. that is another issue.

A .223 will go through the cheap walls of my cheap house and cross my 9 foot wide driveway and go right into my neighbor's bedroom window three feet from my driveway. .

learn how to load and pick your ammo then ..

I've had 223 loads that didn't even make it all the way through a coyote I fucked up and shot .. to say in general a 223 is going though multiple walls and houses when 223 loads didn't even make through a coyote , is bullshit hype..
you need more real world experience .


bullshit guys .. the whole go though walls and multiple houses shit is all hype and deception

[C27H40O3]

None of those calibers have the takedown power of birdshot at ten feet.

Do the 4×4 test and you will understand. I live in a duplex.
A 22 short would hit my neighbor.

Birdshot can dismember you at close range. Shotgun injuries can be devastating.

I remember skeet shooting in a quarry pit. We lined up the beer bottles we found scattered around the pit, and shot them one by one, the entire glass bottle vaporized and turned to dust, leaving the base of the bottle intact on the milkcrate. it was formative to see as a teenager. i had a healthy fear of the business end of that shotgun.

[GearHeaded]

#8 birdshot vs common wall.

big difference between a wall and a bad ass man coming at you filled with anger and hate and wanting to rip your head off...
the bad ass mother fucker filled with anger is going to keep going, the wall is not

[The road]

Heres another.

Except bear in mind you want an open choke not a fking extra full turkey choke

[GearHeaded]

Birdshot can dismember you at close range. Shotgun injuries can be devastating.

I remember skeet shooting in a quarry pit. We lined up the beer bottles we found scattered around the pit, and shot them one by one, the entire glass bottle vaporized .

Lol .. come on thats a glass beer bottle . who cares if its "vaporized" with bb loads out of a shotgun..its a piece of fragile glass..

try doing that to a full grown bad mother fucker with an ax coming at your head and see if you can really vaporize him with your birdshot

[C27H40O3]

[The road]

big difference between a wall and a bad ass man coming at you filled with anger and hate and wanting to rip your head off...
the bad ass mother fucker filled with anger is going to keep going, the wall is not

No. There is not.
I would love to see anyone do anything after a full load of number 8 or 9 shot at 10-20 feet.

[The road]

Lol .. come on thats a glass beer bottle . who cares if its "vaporized" with bb loads out of a shotgun.. try doing that to a full grown bad mother fucker with an ax coming at your head and see if you can really vaporize him with your birdshot

Hes right. 100%
C27 I mean...

I have fucked around with guns on live flesh a lot.

12 guage with bird shot will literally blow an arm entirely the fuck off at ten feet.

[GearHeaded]

just to be fair ,, I own hundreds of rounds of birdshot . but I save them for the birds... not a single round of my home defense guns has bird shot in it .. birdshot has its place. but its not going to go though a bullet proof vest of some fuck wad wearing one trying to fuck with me

[C27H40O3]

Lol .. come on thats a glass beer bottle . who cares if its "vaporized" with bb loads out of a shotgun..its a piece of fragile glass..

try doing that to a full grown bad mother fucker with an ax coming at your head and see if you can really vaporize him with your birdshot

[GearHeaded]

I been watching demo ranch for a long time..

raw meat does not have a spirit and does not have a fight in it thats trying to kill you back .. especially an angry evil fight in it. I've gotten way way past all these ballistics and bullshit on the internet and people playing with raw meat and other testing they do online.
its just all fun and games..

I got a gun room in my house

study ballistics, reload ammo etc..

aint no way in hell I'd trust some fracking youtuber trying to get views for my ammo choices .. just like the Military aint carrying no bird shot into war

[The road]

just to be fair ,, I own hundreds of rounds of birdshot . but I save them for the birds... not a single round of my home defense guns has bird shot in it .. birdshot has its place. but its not going to go though a bullet proof vest of some fuck wad wearing one trying to fuck with me

Do you understand the energy we are talking about?

Here is an example.
Notice the least shock force in the video is from an AR 15.

They used a 1 oz slug in the shotgun at the end.
Thats the same effect as birdshot.

Put on your vest and come on over. We will test.

It wont hurt. Its only birdshot lol

[C27H40O3]

just to be fair ,, I own hundreds of rounds of birdshot . but I save them for the birds... not a single round of my home defense guns has bird shot in it .. birdshot has its place. but its not going to go though a bullet proof vest of some fuck wad wearing one trying to fuck with me

im worried about a crackhead breaking into my house. or a junkie. ANy crackhead or junkie who found a bullet proof vest would sell it and smoke it up or shoot it in his arm long before he gets to my house.

now, if you are some known local rich business owner who is known to have cash at home, then you might have to worry. i aint about that life.

we have different influences in our home defense system decisions.

[The road]

I been watching demo ranch for a long time..

raw meat does not have a spirit and does not have a fight in it thats trying to kill you back .. especially an angry evil fight in it. I've gotten way way past all these ballistics and bullshit on the internet and people playing with raw meat and other testing they do online.
its just all fun and games..

I got a gun room in my house

study ballistics, reload ammo etc..

aint no way in hell I'd trust some fracking youtuber trying to get views for my ammo choices .. just like the Military aint carrying no bird shot into war

If you are angry and doped out of your mind and superman... 12 guage birdshot at 10 feet will close your shit instantly.

You guys have clearly not shot enough animals or anything really with birdshot.

Do you understand the way a choke works or the way energy is displaced when it hits you at 10 ft? It's just barely left the wad and it's like getting shot with a slug except 100% of the energy is displaced immediately on the target. That is the same reason the 223 at point-blank range has little to no effect in terms of shock Force. They passed through and displaced very little energy. More powder and more speed is not the answer in home defense. Big and slow that doesn't pass through will displace 100% of a shock force on the target

[GearHeaded]

If you are angry and doped out of your mind and superman... 12 guage birdshot at 10 feet will close your shit instantly.

You guys have clearly not shot enough animals or anything really with birdshot.

Do you understand the way a choke works or the way energy is displaced when it hits you at 10 ft? It's just barely left the wad and it's like getting shot with a slug except 100% of the energy is displaced immediately on the target. That is the same reason the 223 at point-blank range has little to no effect in terms of shock Force. They passed through and displaced very little energy. More powder and more speed is not the answer in home defense. Big and slow that doesn't pass through will displace 100% of a shock force on the target

I guess we will agree to disagree brother .. I know your probably damn good with a shotgun and bird shot and thats your weapon of choice and I feel you.

I don't think "energy" or shock or foot pounds of force is as important as precise and extreme penetration and shot placement..

where I live , up in the high areas of the rockies , your not taking out an 800 pound elk with bird shot at 200 yards with a shotgun and bird shot.. heck even a pheasant shot with bird shot I still got to twist its neck after being shot.
its not about energy and force but the penetration. and the precision of that penetration with the proper tool to do it.

try hunting an 800 pound Elk with no. 8 bird shot and a shotgun .. good luck with that.

I ain't taking chances with that bullshit based on "energy" and force production .. I'm all about penetration , just like I am with my women
my defense is Glock 10mm, 357 sig, 308 Ar10s, shotgun loaded with slugs, etc..
its not about that whole "energy" thing , its about penetration and precision.

I know bird shot can look pretty good on camera and at close range (and on the chrono with energy loads) .. looks good on camera... but aint no marine walking into battle with a walmrat shotgun loaded with basic bird shot and aint no elk hunter carrying that either .
penetration and precision is what stops the fight

just my opinion

[The road]

I guess we will agree to disagree brother .. I know your probably damn good with a shotgun and bird shot and thats your weapon of choice and I feel you.

I don't think "energy" or shock or foot pounds of force is as important as precise and extreme penetration and shot placement..

where I live , up in the high areas of the rockies , your not taking out an 800 pound elk with bird shot at 200 yards with a shotgun and bird shot.. heck even a pheasant shot with bird shot I still got to twist its neck after being shot.
its not about energy and force but the penetration. and the precision of that penetration with the proper tool to do it.

try hunting an 800 pound Elk with no. 8 bird shot and a shotgun .. good luck with that.

I ain't taking chances with that bullshit based on "energy" and force production .. I'm all about penetration , just like I am with my women
my defense is Glock 10mm, 357 sig, 308 Ar10s, shotgun loaded with slugs, etc..
its not about that whole "energy" thing , its about penetration and precision.

I know bird shot can look pretty good on camera and at close range (and on the chrono with energy loads) .. looks good on camera... but aint no marine walking into battle with a walmrat shotgun loaded with basic bird shot and aint no elk hunter carrying that either .
penetration and precision is what stops the fight

just my opinion

Im talking about 10 feet.
A 300 RUM will not stop a man like a 12 guage with bird shot at 10 feet.

Have ypu ever seen a close range head shot with bird shot?
I been trying to find one.
There is no face left.

Dont try to insult me with the "on camera" bullshit.

I was 8 years old walking around with a 12 guage shooting everything in sight. I have shot millions of rounds and thousand at live targets.

You hit me pissed off with a 9mm I can get through that and maybe do something. Birdshot will stop any target at 10-15 feet even if its not a vital shot.

Losing limbs kinda take the fight out of you.

Give us a demo. Go get your armor and when it stops those bb's tell me how you feel. Then do it 8 more times.

You dont seem to know much about guns for having so many.