Cardio on an empty stomach???

[Random]

For my contest this summer i have started cardio about 2 wks ago...previously i have always done cardio on a completely empty stomach at a low to moderate walking pace...i havent had too much trouble keeping muscle and i did those shows completely natural....this time i take 20grams of protein right before i go walking...maybe ill keep even more muscle this time... who knows...

[SPIKE]

Are you asking ??

, it's all love.

Carido on empty stomach I mean...............

[SPIKE]

When I walk at the incline of 15 at 4.0 it burns around 350-360 cals in a half hour.

Calories burned are calories burned, there's no doubt about it. We are trying to find the best way to burn calories from in the form of Triglycerides not total kcals.

When I perform my cardio I never even look at the total calories burned in that exact bout of cardio, I could care less. I concern myself more so with the amount of calories burned from fat stores.

[SPIKE]

For my contest this summer i have started cardio about 2 wks ago...previously i have always done cardio on a completely empty stomach at a low to moderate walking pace...i havent had too much trouble keeping muscle and i did those shows completely natural....this time i take 20grams of protein right before i go walking...maybe ill keep even more muscle this time... who knows...

So why try to fix something that isnt broken? I understand, if there's a possible way to improve your results why not go for it right? Let us know how it goes, good luck.

20 grams of Protein in 80 kcal correct? Ok, so say you perform 30 minutes at your low to moderate walk, how many calories dose it say you burn? About 250 or so? Get ready b/c those initial 80kcal from your protein will be the first to go, then your stored glucose, then finally your fat. Hopefully by the time FFA's are being released into your blood stream you wont be cooling down.

As far as keeping muscle I"m sure it will, but you probably wont maximize fat loss throughout that duration. Good luck!!!

[SPIKE]

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[tele20]

Calories burned are calories burned, there's no doubt about it. We are trying to find the best way to burn calories from in the form of Triglycerides not total kcals.

When I perform my cardio I never even look at the total calories burned in that exact bout of cardio, I could care less. I concern myself more so with the amount of calories burned from fat stores.

Right, and I agree 100 percent. Thats why I like to do cardio in the morning before my first meal. I was just wondering why MrMention(sp?) told me to try to a speed of 2.5 rather then the 4.0? Any help?

[Big Bapper]

Prob because of the lower intensity to help preserve muscle.

[SPIKE]

Prob because of the lower intensity to help preserve muscle.

That would be my guess as well Bap.

Duration is much more important then intensity. As stated earlier, total calories burned isnt exactly what we are looking for when trying to maximize fat loss while preserving muscle.

For those that are fat or on the verge of being considered obese, then the protocol would differ. Whatever calories they burn would go in the plus column.

[Big Bapper]

[QUOTE=Jayhova] , it's all love.


First you want MrMent1on to tell you your "Gergeous". Now you are saying you love me ??

Is there anything you want to share with us Jay ??

[jef]

If burning fat is most important then how about doing cardio on a completely empty stomach first thing in th emorning for 45-50min then back to the gym in the evening and hit cardio again for another 20-45min after lifting?

Does it matter how soon to hit cardio in the am upon waking? should it be done asap or is 1/2-1 hour okay?

[Big Bapper]

Well Jay Culter says in his DVD. He walks his dogs before hitting the stairmaster.

[Big Bapper]

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Nearly on to page three Bro.

[WEBB]

, it's all love.


First you want MrMent1on to tell you your "Gergeous". Now you are saying you love me ??

Is there anything you want to share with us Jay ??

he has been writing all of his responses in RED, the color of love!!!

I had no idea it would get this in depth, but i am happy that it answered a lot of my questions, except one. what should i take for BCAA?

[Big Bapper]

There you go Jay the writing is on the wall. Writing things in red it will be pink next.

I am only breaking your balls bro , WEBB it was a joke I took from MrMent1on contest prep Thread.

[MrMent1on]

Right, and I agree 100 percent. Thats why I like to do cardio in the morning before my first meal. I was just wondering why MrMention(sp?) told me to try to a speed of 2.5 rather then the 4.0? Any help?

sorry wasnt around to answer you but Precisely bro... 4.0 is damn near running and we all know running burns muscle. The slow the better in terms of preserving muscle. I usually go 2.5 for 1 hour.

[MrMent1on]

Damn near if not every company makes their BCAA version. go to you local GNC store and you will have so many choices.
BCAA Stack contains the "perfect", scientifically-proven ratios of BCAAs and glutamine that are the most important amino acids for athletes who are dieting or training. Among other functional benefits, BCAAs and glutamine help increase protein synthesis, reduce muscle breakdown, enhance recovery, and boost your immune system.

[SPIKE]

Nearly on to page three Bro.

I'll get us there, I promise.

Seems like most agree on AM cardio on an empty stomach correct? OK now what about the downside? LBM loss, how much and is it worth, any personal feedback from anyone?

I think this will be a great reference thread b/c I always see so many new threads relating to this very topic. Page 3 here we come Bap.

__________________________________________________ ________

[SPIKE]

do you think that instead of burning fat since your glycogen levels are low, your body will actually produce cortisol while in a fasted state and doing cardio, that will in turn lead to muscle loss.

I was hoping Webb was going to elaborate more on this, that's why I kind of Edged you on in my second post on this thread Webb.


Now here comes the wrench just when we thought we had it all solved. In the morning cortisol levels are high upon rising. The olny thing thats going to bring that down is eating as when insulin is released it will inhibit the release of cortisol. That's why so many like to inject LR3 and/or Slin in the AM. So what do you think is going to happen after you perform your 30+ minutes on an empty stomach with cortisol levels screamingly high? You guessed it, LBM is going to be taking quite a hit.

Sure we all want to jump on that treadmill or whatever we use and think that triglycerides are rushing to the blood and being relased for fuel. Sure we all want to think that we're losing excessive BF while doing this, but sorry to say but there is always a dark side. That dam teeter totter is always creaping somewhere. Fat-LBM Fat-LBM Fat-LBM they keep going back and forth, back and forth. Dont get me wrong, yielding 3500kcal per pound, Fat is a great source of energy. It's just how to get it in the blood and off our muscle.

I gotta run, curious to see where this is at when I return

[WEBB]

so then taking a low dose of slin in the morning before your cardio will help stop the cortisol release, but if you take slin and dont get the carbs you need you go into hypoglycemic shock or into a coma.

i am so confused...i feel like a blind fag at a weiner roast!!!

[Big Bapper]

No dont take slin before carido, yes you will go into Hypoglycemic shock for sure or get dam close to it, too close for comfort. Think Jay is trying to say thats why bodybuilders use slin in the morning is because thats when cortisol levels or at there highest not before carido.

[SPIKE]

thats why bodybuilders use slin in the morning is because thats when cortisol levels or at there highest not before carido.

That and to keep this thread going .

There's always a flip side Bap. This is one of those topics that will just keep going and going and going. There are too many variables and obstacles whichever route we take. Bottom line, do what works for you. Here's what I have done in the past and has worked well for me:

When I"m trying to drop some BF:
20-30min PWO after each and every W/O. I take in some BCAA's with my last meal before my training session and have my PWO shake in my locker ready to go. For me that has proven to drop BF% while maintaining most LBM. I started this 6 weeks ago after cleaning up my diet and have dropped 2% but have also dropped about 6lbs. If you do the math LBM hasnt budged but I"m also on a decent AAS cycle. So as far as the outcome, I'll take it but was hoping for more.

When I"m really trying to shed that last bit of stubborn BF:
When I can (typically 3-4X a week) I'll perform a moderate to fast pace walk for 20-25 min getting my heart rate to about 135 or so. That's about 62% of Max HR but its just enough to pull from fat stores and not burn any LBM. Then again an additional 20-30min PWO at that very same pace maybe a little bit higher. All AM cardio on an empty stomach and I make sure to have a solid Pro/Fat meal right before bed. I take in about 3g of Vitamin C along with my other vitamins as I've read studies that 3-5g of Vit C can lower Cortisol lelves. I spread it throughout the day taking my last 1g tab with my nighttime meal.

Note: This is what has worked for me, results will vary with everyone. The best bet, if possible, is to have your BF measures weekly or EOW at the least. That will break down exact measurements on what is going and what is staying.

[Random]

I dont know what you guys think of David Barr but heres what he says

"We should never be completely fasted. As soon as you're protein starved, you start breaking down muscle. Throw a catabolic activity like cardio on top of that and you're begging to waste away. Fortunately, it's not too difficult to prevent this muscle catabolism, because all we have to do is eat a little protein. When it comes to cardio, eating protein before will preserve muscle tissue without impacting fat loss."

[MrMent1on]

I dont know what you guys think of David Barr but heres what he says

"We should never be completely fasted. As soon as you're protein starved, you start breaking down muscle. Throw a catabolic activity like cardio on top of that and you're begging to waste away. Fortunately, it's not too difficult to prevent this muscle catabolism, because all we have to do is eat a little protein. When it comes to cardio, eating protein before will preserve muscle tissue without impacting fat loss."

I just dont see this, the body is going to take whatever is present and burn it for fuel. here is my suggestion. Accept the fact that you are going to loose some LBM in order to get shredded and problem solved. would you rather save all your muscles and not be shredded enough or loose a bit of muscle and be shredded as hell?????
Another suggestion would be get your body to the point where its very anabolic and burns fat like a furnace. where you would have no need for cardio... lol only very few bodybuilders have ever reached that level. example Dave Palumbo doesn't have the need for cardio.

[SPIKE]

When it comes to cardio, eating protein before will preserve muscle tissue without impacting fat loss.

Here's how I feel about eating prior to cardio:

Ok, so say you perform 30 minutes at your low to moderate walk, how many calories dose it say you burn? About 250 or so? Get ready b/c those initial 80kcal from your protein will be the first to go, then your stored glucose, then finally your fat. Hopefully by the time FFA's are being released into your blood stream you wont be cooling down.

As far as keeping muscle I"m sure it will, but you probably wont maximize fat loss throughout that duration.

[SPIKE]

here is my suggestion. Accept the fact that you are going to loose some LBM in order to get shredded and problem solved.

The problem here Ment in that people dont want to face this. The only way I see to preserve as much LBM as possible is AAS. Even with the aid of AAS a caloric deficit combined with training and cardio may still chew away at some of that hard earned muscle.

would you rather save all your muscles and not be shredded enough or loose a bit of muscle and be shredded as hell?????

That's the exact question people need to ask themselves before entering into this. Considering the forum we are in you guys know how important it is to come in completley dry for these shows. If one concerns himself too much about maintaining all LBM then they may not be as dry as the guys he's standing next too.

I dont compete nor would ever want to, just not my cup. But my W/O partner does and another one of my good friends. I"m constantly in the mix with all of this and always at shows. I've seens some shows (as I"m sure you'll all agree) where not the biggest guy always wins. Sometimes the smaller guy comes in so shredded to the bone where his rank will be higher then the guy next to him weighing 5lbs. more.

[IBdmfkr]

Opinions:

I have never purposely done cardio in my life and I want to start doing Cardio EOD on non-training days.. What's the most ideal way to plan meals around the cardio session? Similar to Workout session? (1hr before, PWO + PPWO)? Let me know as I am feeling I may start this today. Hope I don't regret this... lol

[Random]

Im not really that concerned with muscle loss...i was just giving some food for thought to the topic...for me i not lose much muscle at all even at very low carbs (50-75g) and doing shows completely natural..this summer will be my first show using extra stuff...ive started cardio early just to get in a mode but when i start dieting in 2 wks i will just be taking aminos before i do cardio then take my protein and carbs after....in the past ive preserved muscle simply by starting out the diet with higher carbs...

[SPIKE]

I have never purposely done cardio in my life

I"m telling you BD, I never really have either. From what I have read we have similar body types, difficult to put on LBM but dam easy to cut up. I was always able to get down pretty low (6-7%) without the aid of cardio, workouts and diet were always enough. But after incorporating some light cardio the BF is just dripping off, I know the same will happen to you.

I want to start doing Cardio EOD on non-training days..

Honeslty I think this is a horrible idea and I see many do this. The only way that I think you'll maximize the benefits of cardio on non-training days will be AM. Think about it, if your body is naturally digesting every 2-3 hours, are you really going to wait that long before its done to do your cardio? No way. Get up in the AM and perform a brisk walk at about 4.1-4.3. Just enough to get your HR up and sweat without eating away at that precious LBM. You're smart enough to monitor yourself and see what's staying and whats going.

[IBdmfkr]

Thx for response Jay, I'll start next week. I didn't want to mess with it during PCT for fear of losing muscle quickly. Let you know how it goes!
Where are your calories etc when doing this, or can you actually burn fat during w/AM cardio with a high calorie diet? Opinions?

[SPIKE]

I didn't want to mess with it during PCT for fear of losing muscle quickly.

I wouldnt want to either. Why dont you concentrate on retaining as much LBM as possible then branch of to cardio? Is it b/c summer is right around the corner?

Where are your calories etc when doing this

My maintanance is around 3200 or so and I try to consume 4500+ bulking. Now that I'm dropping BF I'm doing so on about a 2200-2500 or so kcal diet. I need to drop this low to get my abs to really stick out.

can you actually burn fat during w/AM cardio with a high calorie diet? Opinions?

ABSOLUTLEY!!! Reason for that is b/c regardless of what or how much you're eating throughout the day AM cardio will still be in a fasted state. Say you had your last meal/MRP right before bed. If you slept a solid 8 hours or so that food will be digested, especially a MRP as most do (including myself), SO when you step on the treadmill you'll already be in a catabolic state. Good for certain things, bad for others. I'm sure you can figure it out.

[IBdmfkr]

Good stuff Jay, I have a similar outlook on it.. Always nice to see your opinions etc.. You da man.

[MrMent1on]

you guys are still on this? your making me have second thoughts Jay. I usually get down to about 6%BF before doing any cardio. so I only did cardio 3 weeks out of a show. however I thought I'd eat more carolies this time around and also do more cardio . but now I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?

[SPIKE]

Always nice to see your opinions etc.

You being a friend know that I love personal feedback. What ever I can give will be dealt out hoping it can be used by others, I just look for the same.

[SPIKE]

your making me have second thoughts Jay

Don't let it buddy. You have a great track record and have always done well with what you're doing, keep it up.

so I only did cardio 3 weeks out of a show.

That's nuts that you can get down that low and only rely on 3 weeks prior to showtime on cardio.

but now I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?

Why would you want to do that . I'm assuming to preserve as much LBM as possible but dude 3 weeks out is already pushing it. I wouldnt push it any more then that but you know your body better then I do Ment. Seems 3 weeks in the past has worked for you, dam surprising too. It's awesome to see genetics out there like that.

[SPIKE]

So much for this huh guys?

Regardless on how thick this one gets I"m staying out of it. This will go pages and pages if allowed.

[doctorherb]

I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?

personally, i dont do much cardio myself...Im just a BIG believer in diet being the best strategy for fat loss...I also keep my workouts high intensity/reps, which IMO is pretty good cardio in itself.

[MrMent1on]

personally, i dont do much cardio myself...Im just a BIG believer in diet being the best strategy for fat loss...I also keep my workouts high intensity/reps, which IMO is pretty good cardio in itself.

Thats is correct and in turn you get to keep more LBM.... thats what I'm talking about doc.

[SPIKE]

I also keep my workouts high intensity/reps, which IMO is pretty good cardio in itself.

I'll agree with this til my face is blue. The thing is Doc (and Mr. M) is that when performing these exercises, sure you're getting you HR up quickly. But it's for a short period of time. Everyone keep in mind that we are composed of 3 major energy supply systems. I'll try to break it down so its easier to read and understand. It's nothing of a break through but I feel this will be a great reference thread so I'll try to make it as easy to read as possible.

1. Immediate energy- It's energy supplied to perfrom an exercise of or less then 10 seconds. Something like a 1 rep max or even a 50 yard dash for most. This will use ATP + CP for energy.

2. Short term energy- It's energy supplied for an exercise of 1-2 minutes. Similar to what yuo're talking about Doc, drop sets, super sets. That will utilize ATP + CP + CARBS as energy .

3. Long term energy- Now this is where I'm trying to get into. This is energy that uses ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT as energy. This is where our cardio comes into play an IMO is crucial.

I love to use the word synergy and will have to use it again here. My performing exercises that will utilize all 3 of these energy sources one will achieve their best results. I understand how some need to do less and others need to do more cardio. I"m thankful to be in the group that will drop 2% in a month just by taking on 20min PWO every W/O.

This is getting a bit off the topic of AM cardio but it's a great overview of what our body is using to fule each exercise.


Note: CP= Creatine Phosphate.

[SPIKE]

Thats is correct and in turn you get to keep more LBM...

Totally totally agree . But keep this stat in mind, ready? Since 1lb. of fat is made up of 3500kcal, one could fuel a 30 mile walk with that 1 measly lb. of fat . I couldnt believe it but after doing that math it works out, check it. So after you stop and think about that, you start thinking more and more about cardio.

At your THR one will burn about 500-600kcal and cover 4 miles in distance. So multiply that by 7, you have 3500kcal and 28 miles. Sounds nuts but its mearly science.

Note: All these above numbers are on average and each person can apply it to themselves. For me, I fit right in there so I try to take advantage of every energy source to make sure I"m tapped and that fat gets to work.

[Big Bapper]

you guys are still on this? your making me have second thoughts Jay. I usually get down to about 6%BF before doing any cardio. so I only did cardio 3 weeks out of a show. however I thought I'd eat more carolies this time around and also do more cardio . but now I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?

I know loads of Bodybuilders that leave carido out of there prep as long as possible. The reason being your body ajusts to a diet very quickly and you stop losing fat, now if you trow everything in at the start. Fat buners, carido, reduced caloric intake its very easy to get stuck near the end in regards to bodyfat loss. So I say clean up the diet, loose a bit, reduce the calories loose some more now there is only so far you can go with this as the body needs cals to maintain bodymass. So trow in some carido when the bodtfat loss stops. Then you still have your clen , ECA, T3 etc to fall back on if you stop loosing bodtfat.