Cardio on an empty stomach???

**WEBB** · 05-09-2006, 09:03 AM

what happens if you rely on diet, and supps, and hold off on cardio till four weeks out because you stay lean and used a clean bulk. but then at 3 weeks you relize your behind so you add clen , then at 2 weeks your still behind so you start doing twice a day cardio. does this
A) make you lose more LBM because your calories and everything are lower than at say 8 weeks?
B) would it not be better to start at 8 weeks out a be ready early? instead of just making it in time.
i understand you know your body better than anyone so you'll judge it properly, but human error is a bitch. i have always thought and been trained to go and get ready early, and then hold that condition for the last week or 10 days.

**Big Bapper** · 05-09-2006, 10:30 AM

A) Yes. But as you say you should know your own body, so at that stage you should be in shape(were you want to be at that stage). The reason people hold back on carido is to give themselves something to work with if the fat loss stops. Meaning if you trow every thing in at the start your body will adapt. But if you add thingds when you need them you can take your body to were you want too go IMO.

B) Of course its better to be ready early, then if so you could accually eat more towards the show. Depending on how you looked.

**WEBB** · 05-09-2006, 10:47 AM

i have only done one show, and i am preping for number two now, and i ahve started cardio, on an empty stomach, and clen also. my diet is tght. i wanna be ready at least 1 week out. last time i started cardio late and just made it, i had to 2x a day for a week or two and i think i sacrificed lbm in the process. so i am getting ready early and will try and avoid that

**MrMent1on** · 05-09-2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by WEBB

i have only done one show, and i am preping for number two now, and i ahve started cardio, on an empty stomach, and clen also. my diet is tght. i wanna be ready at least 1 week out. last time i started cardio late and just made it, i had to 2x a day for a week or two and i think i sacrificed lbm in the process. so i am getting ready early and will try and avoid that

Bro its all a learning process.. so from your experience last time, you realize you need to start cardio earlier. this experience might tell you that you did good or you started too early so now your third experience you will know exactly what works best for you, if you need 6 week instead of 8.. this is why we do a bunch of small shows in the beginning before moving up to a national level. you can never learn enough about your own body so we continue learning throughout our bodybuilding life.

***SPIKE*** · 05-09-2006, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jayhova

Everyone keep in mind that we are composed of 3 major energy supply systems. I'll try to break it down so its easier to read and understand. It's nothing of a break through but I feel this will be a great reference thread so I'll try to make it as easy to read as possible.

1. Immediate energy- It's energy supplied to perfrom an exercise of or less then 10 seconds. Something like a 1 rep max or even a 50 yard dash for most. This will use ATP + CP for energy.

2. Short term energy- It's energy supplied for an exercise of 1-2 minutes. Similar to what yuo're talking about Doc, drop sets, super sets. That will utilize ATP + CP + CARBS as energy .

3. Long term energy- Now this is where I'm trying to get into. This is energy that uses ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT as energy. This is where our cardio comes into play an IMO is crucial.

I love to use the word synergy and will have to use it again here. My performing exercises that will utilize all 3 of these energy sources one will achieve their best results. I understand how some need to do less and others need to do more cardio. I"m thankful to be in the group that will drop 2% in a month just by taking on 20min PWO every W/O.

This is getting a bit off the topic of AM cardio but it's a great overview of what our body is using to fule each exercise.

Note: CP= Creatine Phosphate.

No one seemed to comment on the above material I listed on page 2. According to the majority of comments that followed, many still dont feel cardio is a prime necessity. I have to agree that we all differ in body types resulting to different protocols. But Is it safe to say that the above is dismissible since no one acknowledged it?

**farrebarre** · 05-09-2006, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jayhova

No one seemed to comment on the above material I listed on page 2. According to the majority of comments that followed, many still dont feel cardio is a prime necessity. I have to agree that we all differ in body types resulting to different protocols. But Is it safe to say that the above is dismissible since no one acknowledged it?

i agree with u about the necessity of cardio. i never did any cardio couple of months ago but since i started i feel healthier(sp?) i dont lose my breath as easily lol plus my body odor(sp?)(sweat) improved ALOT, ill never stop my cardio ever again.

**WEBB** · 05-09-2006, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by MrMent1on

Bro its all a learning process.. so from your experience last time, you realize you need to start cardio earlier. this experience might tell you that you did good or you started too early so now your third experience you will know exactly what works best for you, if you need 6 week instead of 8.. this is why we do a bunch of small shows in the beginning before moving up to a national level. you can never learn enough about your own body so we continue learning throughout our bodybuilding life.

Exactly...that was kinda my point in a round about way...but i agree 100% it is different for everyone, and all we can do is offer general advice, and no matter what i cant see this one ever getting a concrete answer.

***SPIKE*** · 05-09-2006, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by WEBB

Exactly...that was kinda my point in a round about way...but i agree 100% it is different for everyone, and all we can do is offer general advice, and no matter what i cant see this one ever getting a concrete answer.

Of course not, but I have to admit this was a good thread and feel there are other aspects that are yet to be exhausted. But I'm done, actually I myself am exhausted

.

Tons of studies that suggest one way is better then the other. Then there are studies contricting those studies, its an ongoing battle. Since this isnt much of a "study" board, I refrained from posting many. The personal feedback we got from some was useful and will come in handy for some if not many. I just wish more feedback was given to why certain ways worked .vs. others. It's always easy to say "this worked for me" then it becomes useful when its stated "this is what worked for me and this is why."

Overall, a GREAT reference thread for future use. I"m sure we'll see this one posted in other threads directing people this way.

**Moe-mentum** · 05-15-2006, 01:00 AM

So whats better?
Cardio on an empty stomach or what?

Kidding guys...lol

I love the 3rd post..."Regardless on how thick this one gets I"m staying out of it. This will go pages and pages if allowed."

You just couldn't stay out of it huh.

***SPIKE*** · 05-15-2006, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Moe-mentum

So whats better?
Cardio on an empty stomach or what?

Kidding guys...lol

I love the 3rd post..."Regardless on how thick this one gets I"m staying out of it. This will go pages and pages if allowed."

You just couldn't stay out of it huh.

Wow, goes to show you actually read the entire thing huh?

It got too tempting, I had to give my $.03 (inflation).

**Big Bapper** · 05-15-2006, 11:56 AM

Yea me Too LOL

**~fuelforfire~** · 05-15-2006, 04:42 PM

very interesting, and nice avatar there big bapper, trailer park boys kicks ass.

**Liftnainez** · 05-19-2006, 01:28 PM

some good info bros...

**Anabolic CEO** · 05-19-2006, 01:48 PM

Just a quick question???? Do you guys think cardio is good for you right when you wake up or late at night...I don't want to lose any Muscle......ROFL...LOL....hahahahah. This Damn thing is alread 4 pages, going on 5.

JayHova was right on this one.

What up JAY.

**Anabolic CEO** · 05-19-2006, 01:49 PM

Holy shit...i just realized i have 1G

***SPIKE*** · 05-19-2006, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Anabolic CEO

Just a quick question???? Do you guys think cardio is good for you right when you wake up or late at night...I don't want to lose any Muscle.

LOL, I was getting ready to answer it

Originally Posted by Anabolic CEO

What up JAY.

What's up buddy! Livin' life day by day and not trying to complain about it, that's it.

Feel free to comment if you feel it's needed.

**WEBB** · 05-19-2006, 05:34 PM

Jay, as i stated earlier i do cardio in the am on an empty stomach. I am now 5 weeks from m y comp and i think i need to start doing another cardio session. would you suggest after i train or after my last meal at night???

Maybe this will end up another 4 page discussion

**kuad** · 05-19-2006, 05:39 PM

one last question and sorry if you answered it before... hiit or ... you did mention a "brisk walk" 4.1 to 4.3(btw what is that?)

**WEBB** · 05-19-2006, 05:41 PM

it is the speed you are setting the treadmill to...and set it at like a 10 incline..

**kuad** · 05-19-2006, 05:52 PM

thanks!!! i usually use the cross trainer... any of you guys experiment with hiit?

**WEBB** · 05-19-2006, 05:58 PM

what is hiit???? is it a machine or something???

**kuad** · 05-19-2006, 06:04 PM

high intesity interval training... basically sprinting resting and sprinting again for 20min. shawn phillips talks about it on his web page and this thread...

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ight=sprinting

**WEBB** · 05-19-2006, 06:08 PM

i have never tried it but i have heard of what your talking about, try the training forum, you'll have better luck there. also check out my log in this forum called 8 weeks out, and you will see my training i follow most of the year...my diet is a different story

***SPIKE*** · 05-20-2006, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by WEBB

what is hiit????

Originally Posted by kuad

high intesity interval training... basically sprinting resting and sprinting again for 20min.

Correct, it's actually a very effective cardio regimen for most. IMO I wouldnt use it for AM cardio on an empty stomach but proves effective at other times.

***SPIKE*** · 05-20-2006, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by WEBB

Jay, as i stated earlier i do cardio in the am on an empty stomach.

Originally Posted by WEBB

would you suggest after i train or after my last meal at night?

Definitely after you train. Reason being that by the time you are done training we hope that glycogen stores are tapped (similar to AM) and fat has now moved up to our next energy source. 20-30 min at a low THR (brisk walk as Kuad mentioned) should be enough. The reason I say should is b/c I'm not sure of the level on conditioning you're at. May need more, may need less.

You're gonna rock at your comp!!!!

**Pinnacle** · 05-20-2006, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Anabolic CEO

Just a quick question???? Do you guys think cardio is good for you right when you wake up or late at night....

I do both,and start my cardio even before I start to reduce calories.We'll actually I never really have to reduce cals all that much since I use cardio to keep me lean,and it also allows me to eat much more food right up to comp date.I think alot of guys might lose muscle while dieting prior to a show because of the fact they let thier BF get out of control during the off season.If you stay rather lean(under 10%) during the off season you shouldn't have any problem cutting for a show in 12 weeks time frame.And if you do cardio all the way through your prep cycle ect(AM amd PM) you'll be able to eat alot of food and look incredibly full a week out from the show.Even put on muscle..how about them apples?

I'd go on,but I really hate typing

~Pinnacle~

**WEBB** · 05-20-2006, 02:32 PM

Thanks for the encourgment Jay, i am going to start doing it at night after i train for thereasons you stated...also my conditioning is coming...but i feel i need to add the pm cardio because i am a little behind...i am losing roughly 4 pounds a week and have 5 weeks left, so that puts me close to 230. i can see my abs threough out most of the day, and i am still really full. but i wanna be ready early and be peeld down.

Pinnacle, glad to see ya back, and i though you loved typing...

***SPIKE*** · 05-20-2006, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

I think alot of guys might lose muscle while dieting prior to a show because of the fact they let thier BF get out of control during the off season.If you stay rather lean(under 10%) during the off season you shouldn't have any problem cutting for a show in 12 weeks time frame.

Hey Pinn remember our convo about me telling you about my W/O partner and his connects? Well, one thing that he stressed was that "When in off season dont let your BF get out of control b/c when it comes time to lean down you'll lose too much muscle in effort to lean down. You're best bet is to bulk up but try not to let BF% get out of control, kind of like a lean bulk."

There you go buddy. You stated it word for word as an Olympian competitor did.

Can you tell I like to type? I'm surprised you didnt add to this madness.

**timtim** · 05-21-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jayhova
Everyone keep in mind that we are composed of 3 major energy supply systems. I'll try to break it down so its easier to read and understand. It's nothing of a break through but I feel this will be a great reference thread so I'll try to make it as easy to read as possible.

1. Immediate energy- It's energy supplied to perfrom an exercise of or less then 10 seconds. Something like a 1 rep max or even a 50 yard dash for most. This will use ATP + CP for energy.

2. Short term energy- It's energy supplied for an exercise of 1-2 minutes. Similar to what yuo're talking about Doc, drop sets, super sets. That will utilize ATP + CP + CARBS as energy .

3. Long term energy- Now this is where I'm trying to get into. This is energy that uses ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT as energy. This is where our cardio comes into play an IMO is crucial.

I love to use the word synergy and will have to use it again here. My performing exercises that will utilize all 3 of these energy sources one will achieve their best results. I understand how some need to do less and others need to do more cardio. I"m thankful to be in the group that will drop 2% in a month just by taking on 20min PWO every W/O.

This is getting a bit off the topic of AM cardio but it's a great overview of what our body is using to fule each exercise.

Note: CP= Creatine Phosphate.

i didnt read the entire thread but this is great info. i am bumping this late and you may have already discussed this but could you explain what you do. what exercise/exercises gets you in this state? what's your routine? thanks.

**Big Bapper** · 05-21-2006, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

I do both,and start my cardio even before I start to reduce calories.We'll actually I never really have to reduce cals all that much since I use cardio to keep me lean,and it also allows me to eat much more food right up to comp date.I think alot of guys might lose muscle while dieting prior to a show because of the fact they let thier BF get out of control during the off season.If you stay rather lean(under 10%) during the off season you shouldn't have any problem cutting for a show in 12 weeks time frame.And if you do cardio all the way through your prep cycle ect(AM amd PM) you'll be able to eat alot of food and look incredibly full a week out from the show.Even put on muscle..how about them apples?

I'd go on,but I really hate typing

~Pinnacle~

Great info Pinnacle sounds like a good prep program, I think for my next show I will clean up my diet 12 weeks out and add am and pm carido. Then I will always be able to reduce cals closer to the show if required.

***SPIKE*** · 05-21-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by timtim

I am bumping this late.

That's quite alright, let's get it to page 5!!! What do you think of that Bap?

Originally Posted by timtim

what exercise/exercises gets you in this state?

Its a combination of several things Tim. Just get in there and try to combine diff movements and exercises. Not just the same 'ol 3-4 sets 6-8 reps blah blah blah.

You'll blast through your immediate energy source in no time then its on to short term. Drop sets, super sets, routines like that will not only still continue to build muscle but at the same time keep your HR up higher for a prolonged amount of time leading to more kcal burned. Not only that but this is where you want to clear out glycogen stores and move on to fat of energy. By this time hopefully you'll be finishing up an onto cardio where phase 3 will commence. Here is where you'll use ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT for energy. I'll bold the key word here for all to see

.

Originally Posted by timtim

what's your routine?

I dont have a set routine. I freestlye more this time of the year but try to stick to a basic pattern. Enough of an unaccustomed stimulus in order for my body to not adapt and to continue gaining/losing, however you want to word it

.

The last 3 weeks was heavy weight in the 5-6 rep range finishing with a few drop sets. Starting this week will be moderate weight in a higher rep range and more core movements. Varies and varies and varies and varies. We have waaaaaaaaay too many options to ever get stagnant in our workouts.

**timtim** · 05-21-2006, 08:19 PM

thanks for the explanation. interesting.

**Big Bapper** · 05-22-2006, 06:35 AM

[QUOTE=Jayhova]That's quite alright, let's get it to page 5!!! What do you think of that Bap?

Right on Jay.......Lets get ready too rumble.

Only Joking bro I have had not much time to follow the thread lately or any thread for that matter and could not beleive that it has continued(I thought it was dead). So will just sit this one out......but will be watching when I can and questioning if needed.

.

**kuad** · 05-22-2006, 09:03 AM

jay you said more orless depending on the level on conditioning... i have some stubborn love handles and lower belly fat, so should i do the brisk walk after workout for longer than 30 min?

**kuad** · 05-22-2006, 09:17 AM

page 5?

**Brent_G** · 05-22-2006, 10:44 AM

Bookmarked! good work guys.

***SPIKE*** · 05-22-2006, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by kuad

i have some stubborn love handles and lower belly fat, so should i do the brisk walk after workout for longer than 30 min?

"Stubborn" BF is the hardest to get rid of. All that nasty saturated fat that you/we have consumed over the years is solid at room temp. Therefore it just sits and doesnt want to budge. That is the last fat to go and to get rid of that you really need to crank in that cardio once in a carb depleted state.

So for you, start with that 30min PWO brisk walk (3.8-4.2 or so) and take it from there. You know my stance on AM cardio and that will aid greatly as well. Very difficult to really get deep into this b/c there are too many variables. I for one typically take 60-90 minutes with someone on a sit down before a cardio prescription is dealt. You'll never get a quick answer from me Kuad, sorry.

Note: Not all saturated fat is solid at room temp. SO before any of you wise asses jump all over that I'll make a note of it

**kuad** · 05-23-2006, 07:13 AM

jay, you have a pm

**the hulkster** · 05-23-2006, 07:57 AM

the theory is that doing cardio on an empty stomach, an individual will reach glycolysis faster and in turn then reach fat oxidation faster, I have been apart of studies for such things and this is not always the case. So I think jesus i mean jayhova is right, find what you think works and then keep doing it.

**Equiguns** · 05-27-2006, 02:30 AM

Can I point out something? You guys speak of this stuff as though it happens instantaneously...remember these processes happen over time...therefore keeping your body in a anti-catabolic/anabolic state will, in general, keep you out of trouble...doig cardio on an empty stomach for 30 minutes does not mean your body will go eating all it's muscle. Your body has stored energy in different forms, glycogen, fats, any other contents...when you do 30 minutes of cardio and burn (very few) calories in respect to the big picture, you will not eat muscle and lose pounds of muscle. Worst case scenario would be a couple of grams of literal, actual, muscle tissue from your body every work-out. Glutamine can be used throughout the day, and not just before the workout...glutamine is has been shown to help save muscle...that doesnt mean you have to take it RIGHT before the workout, you can do your workout and take the glutamine 15-30 minutes after the cardio. Think about it, after a heavy weight workout, you want to take some protein to feed your muscle (to make them grow) but you think they are growing huge? no, they are fed milligrams out of the 50 gram shake you take PWO. Believe me, if the body soaked up everything and expelled everything exactly how some poeple think we would all have perfect bodies. I would be drinking 50 gram sshakes every day and gaining 40-50 grams of actual muscle fibers in the muscle i worked out that day...not really, although I can keep dreaming. DOing morning cardio is fine, just take protein through out the day at proper intervals (depending on the protein anywhere from 30 minutes-7 hours) and eat an appropriate diet. Then take glutamine and clen if possible for anti-catabolic effects. And DONT WORRY so much, the human body is not as critical as we are! look at the big picture with more emphasis then the hourly physiological time-schedules.