Israel is a war criminal!!

[Older lifter]

This is a misinformed post... No disrespect to you Old Lifter but these people are fighting for their land and freedom of ZIONIST Jewish Occupation. You should watch the documentary posted on this thread.

No disrespect to you either, but i have spent most of my life working in countries where religion or money has been the course of so so much problems (not from reading book, but from being there), i am sick of muslium this, christian that or jew there.....

End of the day people, people, people are doing all the problems and using one reason or another to make it right for there side... One peaceful world is a dream, generally people will do what is best for them. I don't respect any religion or culture, every one of them that i have seen is hipocritical, even where i live.

I believe in 'i treat you like you treat me' you want to fight i'll fight, you want to live side by side i will live side by side, respect on all levels. Should be the same with countries too, you treat our people like sh*t we will treat yours the same way,,, maybe this way things will finally start getting on a level playing field, respect people not some bl**dy religion or greed..

Oh just to add, all land, all of it was taken by us, we were not here first, who the hell says that that land is his, this land is there, all land has been taken, and yes usually taken by the strong,,,,,,,ummm sound like evolution.....

[smokethedays]

Oh okay i thought you meant to say its in the quaran. So since obviously you are muslim or know about it more where is it from. Where did they get this idea or belief.
And if its not in the quaran why do muslims believe it. i thought just like the bible quaran is word of god or something in that manner.

Where it came from I don't know.
Muslims believe it?! who told you that? CNN, Fox, or NBC?

Muslims don't believe that, extremists do. and extremists are NOT muslims.
Who am I to say so, a netural Muslim among over a billion neutral ones.

[smokethedays]

i dont disagree with what you are saying... except that you point all the blam on one person, the jew or israel

how bout this you nighbor is throwing garbage in you yard daily, every day, for years... you beg them to stop. finally you get mad and find a garbage truck to dump a whole mess load of crap, over nightm in to thier yard... that would be a better explination of what seems to be happening

only thing is these annalogies are not taking in to consideration the people innocent or not... my only point is i belive this is just more of the same old thing lets say the jew do take over the gazza strip... what will the palstines do then? will they say o well i guess we lost? or will they respond with more blood shed? i dont know who is right or wrong????

what i do know if israel is not doing this to them they are doing it to israel

and i do think that all this has ALL of it playings or more like a woven thread of end times.

and you were calling me names... i forgive you for that

I really don't know anymore how to make you SEE that Israel invaded that land, and yet you keep giving me examples of "what if" type.

Dude, you are way off. Your example would be valid if it is 2 neighbooring countires, i.e. the USA and Canada.

We are freakin' takin' about ILLEGAL occupation, by international law, moral law, and any fvckin' law out there. Do you understand that the whole world agreed on resolution 242 by the UN which commands Israel to retreat before 1967 war and they haven't complied!!! Matter of fact they took more land since then.

Forgive me for what by the way?!! Yes you are ignorant in this matter and you keep arguing. I didn't cuss you out, its just the reality.

[gst528i]

No disrespect to you either, but i have spent most of my life working in countries where religion or money has been the course of so so much problems (not from reading book, but from being there), i am sick of muslium this, christian that or jew there.....

End of the day people, people, people are doing all the problems and using one reason or another to make it right for there side... One peaceful world is a dream, generally people will do what is best for them. I don't respect any religion or culture, every one of them that i have seen is hipocritical, even where i live.

I believe in 'i treat you like you treat me' you want to fight i'll fight, you want to live side by side i will live side by side, respect on all levels. Should be the same with countries too, you treat our people like sh*t we will treat yours the same way,,, maybe this way things will finally start getting on a level playing field, respect people not some bl**dy religion or greed..

Oh just to add, all land, all of it was taken by us, we were not here first, who the hell says that that land is his, this land is there, all land has been taken, and yes usually taken by the strong,,,,,,,ummm sound like evolution.....

Thats really nice if everyone believed this instead of religion. I wish someone would already make a time machine and kill all and every religion. Any time a man claiming to know the word of god should be erased. Would be nice to imagine everyone united

[jimmyinkedup]

religon in and of itself is not bad...all religions teach basic spiritual principles....its the beliefs by certain sects of certain religions that their religion is the only true religion (thats not unusual almost all religions state that) and it should be pushed upon everyone ...even if by force if necessary. In other words religious principles in and of themselves are good and can lead to a spiritual and fulfilling way of life.....its the misapplication of certain portions by people that makes it bad. Religion has brought the opportunity of spirtuality to the masses ....

[the.muscled.lawyer]

the jews are the best in finance

the jews are the best in economics

the jews are the best in law practice and especially business law

the jews are influential

the jews are the best in mutual aid

the jews are the best in erudition


the jews are the best in war and especially when it's about to kill thousands people


the jews are the worst criminal ever seen in the world


They are a cursed population and nothing can justify the mass murder of children and womens.


claim that they re just defending themselves is a load of craps


for one rocket launched, they re slaughtering hundred people

is there a justice ? for my part, i dont think so.

[gst528i]

the jews are the best in finance

the jews are the best in economics

the jews are the best in law practice and especially business law

the jews are influential

the jews are the best in mutual aid

the jews are the best in erudition


the jews are the best in war and especially when it's about to kill thousands people


the jews are the worst criminal ever seen in the world


They are a cursed population and nothing can justify the mass murder of children and womens.


claim that they re just defending themselves is a load of craps


for one rocket launched, they re slaughtering hundred people

is there a justice ? for my part, i dont think so.

Wasnt just one rocket, multiple over a period weeks and months but i see your stand point. It like fighting a flu with chemo therapy huh ...

[BuffedGuy]

My dearest beloved brother SmokeTheDays:

May you be rewarded for your effort. I just wanted to make one minor correction. Please do not take offense to it, brother.

It is incorrect to say that only extremists believe in the 72 virgins thing. Rather, it is the belief of the orthodox Muslims that a man who dies in Jihad will be rewarded immensely, and of those rewards will be 72 virgins. As for it not being mentioned in the Quran, then this is incorrect; although the number 72 was specified by God's Messenger, nonetheless the Quran itself does mention the hoor al-ayn (i.e. virgins). (As a side-note, many Non-Muslims wonder why the number 72...the reason is that 72 in Arabic meant infinity, or literally 'a great number'. So it does not mean 72 exactly; rather, it means a great number.)

This is ONE of the rewards for those who wage a TRUE Jihad, which is enjoined on Muslims to defend one's people when they are invaded and occupied by outsiders. Any self-respecting people would defend their family and homeland from invasion by foreigners. So this is what is meant by TRUE Jihad.

As for what the terrorist extremists like Al-Qaeda do, this is NOT Jihad. Rather, it is extremism and terrorism. They will NOT get 72 virgins, but rather they will get the torment of Hell-fire, as Allah's Messenger [s] said that they would be the dogs of hell-fire. In Jihad, it is COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN to target non-combatants, especially women, children, the old, the clergy, etc. So these people who claim to be waging Jihad have NOTHING to do with Jihad.

As for the complaint of some that 72 virgins is too sensual, then this is absurd. Who would want to go to Heaven if there are no women there? And the man who risks his life to defend his people--and who leaves behind a beautiful wife--has the MOST right to having beautiful women as a reward.

Of course, the greatest reward in Paradise will be to be with God, as is stated in the Quran.

[BuffedGuy]

the jews are the best in finance

the jews are the best in economics

the jews are the best in law practice and especially business law

the jews are influential

the jews are the best in mutual aid

the jews are the best in erudition


the jews are the best in war and especially when it's about to kill thousands people


the jews are the worst criminal ever seen in the world


They are a cursed population and nothing can justify the mass murder of children and womens.


claim that they re just defending themselves is a load of craps


for one rocket launched, they re slaughtering hundred people

is there a justice ? for my part, i dont think so.

It is perhaps better that we make a distinction between Jews and Zionists. Like I said earlier, there are many Jews who are opposed to Zionism. As the Quran says:

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand for the right: They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous."(The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)

(The Jews were and still are called the People of the Book.)

[Matt]

I have to say i have really enjoyed this thread, the debate has been informative. Most people here seem well educated on this subject, far more so than me, but ive learnt alot.
Its a shame there arnt more people like you guys. Im a member of a number of other boards where the views are to say the least, the opposite to those shared here, and im fighting the battle on my own, but fu.k them...

[Flagg]

It seems to me that Hamas could give a shit about the people dying and are more concerned with their wounded pride.

This is a tragedy, which I can only see resolved when one side has utterly decimated the other...and we all know Hamas doesn't have the capabilities to do that to Israel.

[BuffedGuy]

This is a tragedy, which I can only see resolved when one side has utterly decimated the other

Kind of like the early American pioneers decimated the Native Americans? Might is right?

...and we all know Hamas doesn't have the capabilities to do that to Israel.

"How oft, by God's will, hath a small force vanquished a mighty one?" (Quran, 2:249)

EDIT: I don't believe in Hamas's war policy (which I believe is against the doctrines of our faith); I simply mean that the Palestinian people--and the Muslims in general--will liberate Palestine.

[Flagg]

Kind of like the early American pioneers decimated the Native Americans? Might is right?


"How oft, by God's will, hath a small force vanquished a mighty one?" (Quran, 2:249)

EDIT: I don't believe in Hamas's war policy (which I believe is against the doctrines of our faith); I simply mean that the Palestinian people--and the Muslims in general--will liberate Palestine.

Point number 1: I never said might was right, but it's always how the world has worked.

Point number 2: Well Hamas can keep telling themselves that. When they finally realise it's the 21st Century, then maybe they'll see what they are doing is utterly futile. Trust me, I think it's blatantly wrong what Israel is doing to Gaza, but Hamas care nothing for the rights of your average Palastinian. They're still living in the dark ages. Both sides are as bad as the other.

Point number 3: I would love to see Gaza left alone by Israel. What do you mean by "liberate", do you not wish to live in peace side by side with the Jews?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Flagg.

Point number 1: I never said might was right, but it's always how the world has worked.

I guess we will have to disagree on this. I believe in God, and I believe that even if all the people in the world gathered together in unison, they could not overcome His Decree. I believe that many mighty nations were defeated by God, who were more powerful in the land than Israel. But alas, this is a matter of faith, and so let us agree to disagree, God Willing. No offense.

Point number 2: Well Hamas can keep telling themselves that. When they finally realise it's the 21st Century, then maybe they'll see what they are doing is utterly futile.

I also agree that what Hamas is doing is futile, and we--the orthodox Muslims--warn them severely about this.

Trust me, I think it's blatantly wrong what Israel is doing to Gaza, but Hamas care nothing for the rights of your average Palastinian. They're still living in the dark ages. Both sides are as bad as the other.

I disagree with Hamas's methodology, but this does not mean that I do not feel for the Palestinian people in generality. I do NOT at all think there is a moral equivalence between the Palestinians and the Zionist state of Israel. There is an oppressor and there is an oppressed. When the American pioneers vanquished the Native Americans, the oppressors were the Americans and the oppressed were the Native Americans. Just because some of the Native Americans--a good deal of the young ones--resorted to terror tactics did not at all negate the fact that the Native Americans were the oppressed party. The invader is responsible for whatever happens as a result of his invasion. If some of the occupied peoples resort to terror tactics (as inevitably happens in any invasion), then the blame is on the invader, and the occupied people cannot be blamed for that. If I rob a bank and in the commission of the crime one of the police officers accidentally shoots a bystander, then *I* am to blame since had I not chosen to rob the bank, none of this would have happened.

Point number 3: I would love to see Gaza left alone by Israel. What do you mean by "liberate", do you not wish to live in peace side by side with the Jews?

We were living in peace side-by-side for hundreds of years. The Jews used to flee persecution in Europe to live in safety in Muslim lands. The Jews had their golden age in the Muslim ruled Andalusia. As Rabbi Dovid Weiss of Neturei Karta (Jews against Zionism) said:

"We as Jews, as practicing Jews, have been living side by side in all the Muslim countries amongst the Arab peoples. We have no problem. The problem is purely political since the creation of this movement, Zionism, which became ultimately the State of Israel."

( http://english.ohmynews.com/articlev...07736&rel_no=1 )

So we wish to return to that state of affairs, before Israel was created and before the colonial British forces occupied our lands. We wish to regain our sovereignty and the right to rule our own land. The Jews will be respected and considered a protected people under our rule, just as was the case before the British and Zionist occupation of our lands.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[Flagg]

Peace be unto you, Flagg.



I guess we will have to disagree on this. I believe in God, and I believe that even if all the people in the world gathered together in unison, they could not overcome His Decree. I believe that many mighty nations were defeated by God, who were more powerful in the land than Israel. But alas, this is a matter of faith, and so let us agree to disagree, God Willing. No offense.



I also agree that what Hamas is doing is futile, and we--the orthodox Muslims--warn them severely about this.



I disagree with Hamas's methodology, but this does not mean that I do not feel for the Palestinian people in generality. I do NOT at all think there is a moral equivalence between the Palestinians and the Zionist state of Israel. There is an oppressor and there is an oppressed. When the American pioneers vanquished the Native Americans, the oppressors were the Americans and the oppressed were the Native Americans. Just because some of the Native Americans--a good deal of the young ones--resorted to terror tactics did not at all negate the fact that the Native Americans were the oppressed party. The invader is responsible for whatever happens as a result of his invasion. If some of the occupied peoples resort to terror tactics (as inevitably happens in any invasion), then the blame is on the invader, and the occupied people cannot be blamed for that. If I rob a bank and in the commission of the crime one of the police officers accidentally shoots a bystander, then *I* am to blame since had I not chosen to rob the bank, none of this would have happened.

We were living in peace side-by-side for hundreds of years. The Jews used to flee persecution in Europe to live in safety in Muslim lands. The Jews had their golden age in the Muslim ruled Andalusia. As Rabbi Dovid Weiss of Neturei Karta (Jews against Zionism) said:

"We as Jews, as practicing Jews, have been living side by side in all the Muslim countries amongst the Arab peoples. We have no problem. The problem is purely political since the creation of this movement, Zionism, which became ultimately the State of Israel."

( http://english.ohmynews.com/articlev...07736&rel_no=1 )

So we wish to return to that state of affairs, before Israel was created and before the colonial British forces occupied our lands. We wish to regain our sovereignty and the right to rule our own land. The Jews will be respected and considered a protected people under our rule, just as was the case before the British and Zionist occupation of our lands.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Peace unto you also, BuffedGuy.

I do not agree at all with 7 days of Israeli retaliation, but why cant the Jews have their own home where they are not living under the rule of someone else? I can accept that in Andalusia they lived in peace, but is it really their home? It's no different to impossing a New World Order on the entire planet. Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet, I mean where else are they meant to go? Is it not enough that they are allowed to live there, side by side with the surrounding Arab states? Why is land so damn important? It's no different than Israel trying to take Gaza by force, as it is for the decades of war that has been waged on Israel by surrounding Arab states claiming it has no right to exist. However, I am hopeful that a peaceful agreement can be made. Look at Northern Ireland, though not perfect, a Hell of a lot better than its been in the last 30 + years.

[BuffedGuy]

Thank you for your courteous reply, Flagg.

why cant the Jews have their own home where they are not living under the rule of someone else?

We Muslims have no problem with the Jews having their own homeland. If the Germans feel bad about the Holocaust, then they can give a sliver of their land to create a Jewish homeland there. If the Americans feel bad about the Jews being persecuted, then they can give one of their fifty states to the Jews. If the Europeans feel bad about persecuting Jews for so many hundreds of years, then they can give part of their European Union land to the Jews. The Muslims did not carry out pogroms against Jews ever, and certainly not the Palestinians. So why should we give our land to them?

Let's say that the Tutsis kept persecuting and massacring the Hutus, can you imagine what America's reaction would be if the Hutus said "just give us a sliver of your land--say the coast of California? I mean, you guys have soooo much land, from sea to shining sea." No country would ever agree to such a thing.

However, the fact is that the Zionists were offered uninhabited part of Uganda as a homeland. That was going to be the original destination of the Zionist state. But the Zionists--in their religious zeal--refused Uganda and demanded Muslim territory, because they considered their land given to them by God. (If I say that God gave me all of America, I doubt the Americans would say: "OK sure here you go, sir!")

So what we say is: this argument that the Jews had no place else is false. They were offered Uganda; they refused and instead began their colonial takeover of Palestine.

Furthermore, not every people have a right to their own country. If you are a very small minority, you might not get your own land, since land is limited on earth. There are many small religions that exist and do not have a single country to their own, such as the Bahais, Wicca, Zoroastrians, Rastafarianism, etc. Do they all get their own lands? No. Who rules a country depends on who the majority of the people are in that land. Jews make up 0.22% of the world's population ( http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html ), so it is no wonder that they didn't have a homeland for so long.

Yes, they (the Jews)--like all other people--have a right to live in peace and security wherever, such as how they live in America. But do they automatically get another country for themselves? I don't think so. Nonetheless, I had no issue with them taking a part of Uganda, so long as no other people lived there.

Why is land so damn important?

To Muslims, Jews, and Christians, the land of Palestine is considered the Holy Land. So it has a special significance. To Muslims, Jerusalem is one of the three holy cities of Islam. Furthermore, it is a huge base for America in Muslim land. Can you imagine if during the Cold War, Russia demanded that Idaho should be given to the Cuban Fidel Castro? I mean, after all, it's just a small state! But the Americans would never even agree to give a small village to the Cubans, since that would become a base inside the heartland of America for the Russians. Likewise, Israel is a base in the heart of the Middle East for America.

We Muslims are sick of the British, French, Russians, Americans, and other Europeans interfering in our lands. Just stay in your own land and everything will be fine. As presidential candidate Dr. Ron Paul said: 9/11 would NEVER have happened had America not been involved in neo-colonialism in Muslim lands. (Not that 9/11 was justified; it wasn't. But it happened as a direct result of American imperialism.)

Back to the point: Israel is more than just a sliver of land: it is a base for the Americans against the Muslims. It has nukes. Can you imagine if the Russians set up Fidel Castro in Idaho and placed nukes in Idaho? Americans would be trembling in their boots, and DEMAND that Idaho be taken back.

It's no different than Israel trying to take Gaza by force,

It is very different. Gaza has always been Palestinian, whereas Israel is stolen land, a land which they stole just a little over 50 years ago. Before that, all the land was Palestinian.

as it is for the decades of war that has been waged on Israel by surrounding Arab states claiming it has no right to exist.

This is a myth propagated by Israel. Israel has the fourth strongest military in the world. Israel has been harassing and devestating ALL of its neighbors since its creation. The Arab neighbors have a reason to be worried, because the Zionists believe that Eretz Israel (i.e. Biblical Israel) includes a HUGE chunk of all its neighboring Arab countries, all the way deep into Arabia, including the holy city of Madeenah, the capitol of Islam.

Look at this map to see what the Greater Israel means:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...srael-map1.gif

This is what the Zionists intend, and it is only a matter of time before they get it.

However, I am hopeful that a peaceful agreement can be made.

I am not hopeful at all, but if a fair and just peace agreement can be given to the Palestinians, then we (the Muslims) will accept it, because we are a peace-loving people. However, I am not hopeful that the Zionists will ever do that; rather, their peace agreements are designed only to allow their military juggernaut to recharge. It is a part of their divide-and-conquer philosophy. Just like the American pioneers destroyed the Native Americans through false "peace treaties", likewise the Zionists have been doing that.

As the great anti-Zionist Jewish thinker Noam Chomsky said, the Palestinians have lost MORE through the peace agreements with Israel than through war. If we learn ANY lesson from the Native Americans, it is that we should not agree to ANY of these false peace treaties, but instead wage continual resistance and freedom-fighting, altogether united as one. The Zionists cannot be trusted, just like the American pioneers could not be treated. Peace treaties are only as worthy as the word of those who sign it, and the Zionists are treacherous colonialists.

Again, if the Israelis offered a fair peace treaty, we'd jump at it. But included in this peace treaty MUST BE The Right of Return, as guaranteed by international law. So long as they refuse this, the Israelis are war criminals.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin

[BuffedGuy]

By the way, I don't want my last post to be construed as a rant against Americans. I have nothing against Americans. A lot of them are great people. And the country of America has a lot of greatness and things I admire. However, the foreign policy is oppressive and must be changed. And I believe that this would be in line with the ideology of the Founding Fathers, who wanted America to be a peace-loving and neutral country, not a warlike colonial state, which was what the Founding Fathers were fleeing!

[MuscleScience]

By the way, I don't want my last post to be construed as a rant against Americans. I have nothing against Americans. A lot of them are great people. And the country of America has a lot of greatness and things I admire. However, the foreign policy is oppressive and must be changed. And I believe that this would be in line with the ideology of the Founding Fathers, who wanted America to be a peace-loving and neutral country, not a warlike colonial state, which was what the Founding Fathers were fleeing!

I think thats what most of us Americans want to, but we have a faction of people that believe that our Constitution is out of date and should be molded to fit popular whims, instead of being the guiding light of our policy and morality.

BTW, I was done with this thread because of all the blatant jew hating (im not jewish mind you) now I am interested in it again because of yours and others recent intelligent post. I wish that there was a jewish perspective on this issue because I believe some of the arguments are one sided. (not pointing out anyone specific)

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, MuscleScience.

Thank you very much for your kind words.

I think thats what most of us Americans want to, but we have a faction of people that believe that our Constitution is out of date and should be molded to fit popular whims, instead of being the guiding light of our policy and morality.

I agree.

In fact, this is true even of Jewish Americans, who actually tend to be liberal progressives. They did a poll recently and found that the vast majority of them wanted peace AND supported the idea of a Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel, something that the Zionists have been preventing for decades. I also think that if they were explained the issue of the Right of Return, I believe that many of them would support it and even demand it.

I read an article written by a liberal Jew who basically said that the Zionists are very powerful in Washington (due to AIPAC) but that they don't faithfully represent the sentiments of Jews in general. (Having said that, there are no doubt many Zionist Jews in America.)

My point is that it is not fair to "Jew bash". However, I *do* "Zionist bash", because to me, Zionism is like Nazism and thus fair game. And the United Nations agreed that Zionism is racism when it passed the General Assembly Resolution 3379, which was in effect for almost twenty years, until pressure from the USA (bowing to AIPAC's immense pressure) caused it to be scrapped.

BTW, I was done with this thread because of all the blatant jew hating (im not jewish mind you)

I agree with you that we should not Jew bash and I urge everyone to stay away from that. God says in the Quran:

"Let not the hatred of a people towards you move you to commit injustice." (Quran, 5:8)

We must stop the cycle of hatred. The Nazis were racist towards Jews, then the Zionist Jews were in turn racist to the Arabs, and then now some of my fellow Arab brethren have turned into racists against Jews...we must break this cycle.

As the Quran says:

"Every soul will reap the fruits of its own deeds; no soul shall bear another's burden." (Quran, 6:164)

So if one Jew does something wrong, then we oppose that one Jew, not all of the Jews in the world. If one Arab does something wrong, then we oppose that Arab, not all the Arabs in the world.

I know this is a concept that Americans cherish, and generally they are good about avoiding racism.

now I am interested in it again because of yours and others recent intelligent post.

Thank you very much.

I wish that there was a jewish perspective on this issue because I believe some of the arguments are one sided. (not pointing out anyone specific)

If you'd like to be an *expert* on the topic, then I suggest reading "The Fateful Triangle", written by the Jewish Noam Chomsky, who is a genius professor at MIT.

Although I understand the need of healthy debate, I believe that Zionists have no truthful arguments to defend their tenuous position, just as Nazis wouldn't.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[smokethedays]

My dearest beloved brother SmokeTheDays:

May you be rewarded for your effort. I just wanted to make one minor correction. Please do not take offense to it, brother.

It is incorrect to say that only extremists believe in the 72 virgins thing. Rather, it is the belief of the orthodox Muslims that a man who dies in Jihad will be rewarded immensely, and of those rewards will be 72 virgins. As for it not being mentioned in the Quran, then this is incorrect; although the number 72 was specified by God's Messenger, nonetheless the Quran itself does mention the hoor al-ayn (i.e. virgins). (As a side-note, many Non-Muslims wonder why the number 72...the reason is that 72 in Arabic meant infinity, or literally 'a great number'. So it does not mean 72 exactly; rather, it means a great number.)

This is ONE of the rewards for those who wage a TRUE Jihad, which is enjoined on Muslims to defend one's people when they are invaded and occupied by outsiders. Any self-respecting people would defend their family and homeland from invasion by foreigners. So this is what is meant by TRUE Jihad.

As for what the terrorist extremists like Al-Qaeda do, this is NOT Jihad. Rather, it is extremism and terrorism. They will NOT get 72 virgins, but rather they will get the torment of Hell-fire, as Allah's Messenger [s] said that they would be the dogs of hell-fire. In Jihad, it is COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN to target non-combatants, especially women, children, the old, the clergy, etc. So these people who claim to be waging Jihad have NOTHING to do with Jihad.

As for the complaint of some that 72 virgins is too sensual, then this is absurd. Who would want to go to Heaven if there are no women there? And the man who risks his life to defend his people--and who leaves behind a beautiful wife--has the MOST right to having beautiful women as a reward.

Of course, the greatest reward in Paradise will be to be with God, as is stated in the Quran.

I will not take any offense as long as the critisizm is constructive.
However, there has been a grest debate over the word Hoor -Alain meaning, and that where we have a clash between orthodox Muslims like you wanna call them, and netural every day Muslim. Its been debated that it meant, beautiful women with large eyes (sayin' the big eyes are a characteristic of beauty).

However my friend, the problem is not in what is waiting us, only god knows that. The problem is that Palestinians are gettin' f-ed day and night while the US, the UK, spain, and Nazi Germany sayin' its a self defense.

Maybe one of those countries should give Israel some of their vast lands.
why don't the Israelies move to Beverly Hills, they already own it some what.

[BuffedGuy]

Its been debated that it meant, beautiful women with large eyes (sayin' the big eyes are a characteristic of beauty).

Yes, my dear brother, that *is* what it refers to.

we have a clash between orthodox Muslims like you wanna call them, and netural every day Muslim.

I did not capitalize the word "orthodox" because I did not mean to imply a sect. Rather, I meant the mainstream every day Muslims. I agree that there might be a debate between the Islamic Ulema and some laypersons.

Fi Aman Allah [swt],
-Saladin.

[MuscleScience]

I will not take any offense as long as the critisizm is constructive.
However, there has been a grest debate over the word Hoor -Alain meaning, and that where we have a clash between orthodox Muslims like you wanna call them, and netural every day Muslim. Its been debated that it meant, beautiful women with large eyes (sayin' the big eyes are a characteristic of beauty).

However my friend, the problem is not in what is waiting us, only god knows that. The problem is that Palestinians are gettin' f-ed day and night while the US, the UK, spain, and Nazi Germany sayin' its a self defense.

Maybe one of those countries should give Israel some of their vast lands.
why don't the Israelies move to Beverly Hills, they already own it some what.

Nazi Germany has not existed since 1945, So your comment is either very ignorant or very disrespectful. I am hoping it was an ignorant comment and you meant no disrespect.

[BuffedGuy]

Nazi Germany has not existed since 1945, So your comment is either very ignorant or very disrespectful. I am hoping it was an ignorant comment and you meant no disrespect.

I also found the comment to be...off. Maybe I am misunderstanding it though.

[smokethedays]

Nazi Germany has not existed since 1945, So your comment is either very ignorant or very disrespectful. I am hoping it was an ignorant comment and you meant no disrespect.

I also found the comment to be...off. Maybe I am misunderstanding it though.

Yes, both of you misunderstood my intention, sorry for using such word be couldn't find a better word.

The reason I said so, is because Germany is supporting Israel in what she is doing of massacres against Palestinians. Israel is re-doing the holocaust on Paletiniians and Germany is supportive of that, thats what I meant.

[smokethedays]

Nazi Germany has not existed since 1945, So your comment is either very ignorant or very disrespectful. I am hoping it was an ignorant comment and you meant no disrespect.

That I don't think so bro, the only ignorance I see on here is when you and others like yourself support bunch of criminal Zionists butchering innocent civilians just because of some fvckin' bibilcal horse shit says the Jews are the people of god and the promise land...etc of this made up shit by the Jews themselves who translated the bible.

[smokethedays]

I think thats what most of us Americans want to, but we have a faction of people that believe that our Constitution is out of date and should be molded to fit popular whims, instead of being the guiding light of our policy and morality.

BTW, I was done with this thread because of all the blatant jew hating (im not jewish mind you) now I am interested in it again because of yours and others recent intelligent post. I wish that there was a jewish perspective on this issue because I believe some of the arguments are one sided. (not pointing out anyone specific)

Why do you think this thread is Jew hating?!!

Its condmening Israel for its doings, thats all. I don't see any hate, no one said the Jews must be killed, butchered, or exiled.
You are just making excuses because of the overwhelming evidences that Israel is nothing more than war criminal and illegal state.

[gst528i]

Why do you think this thread is Jew hating?!!

Its condmening Israel for its doings, thats all. I don't see any hate, no one said the Jews must be killed, butchered, or exiled.
You are just making excuses because of the overwhelming evidences that Israel is nothing more than war criminal and illegal state.

You know i have always heard ( the quotations in this thread and my GF) that the quaran has some very insightful writing in it. What i always fail to understand is if this book is full of peace and knowledge and insight where do the poeple get their anger from. How to the extremist use this book to teach false jihad (if you may). How can it teach to be intolerant of other religions. I know there is some things in there that tell anyone who is not a muslim doesnt go to heaven and it is a duty for muslims to convert people but i dont think its suppose to force people.

[smokethedays]

You know i have always heard ( the quotations in this thread and my GF) that the quaran has some very insightful writing in it. What i always fail to understand is if this book is full of peace and knowledge and insight where do the poeple get their anger from. How to the extremist use this book to teach false jihad (if you may). How can it teach to be intolerant of other religions. I know there is some things in there that tell anyone who is not a muslim doesnt go to heaven and it is a duty for muslims to convert people but i dont think its suppose to force people.

Extrimists exist in all religions and they always interpert the vague messages the wrong way, just like crusaders and zionists. I don't believe or think that there is any religion encourages killing.

About the part in bold, Im not sure what is the correct explanation of that, I forgot. But Buffed Guy can answer that for sure in his thread.

The duty thing, it is not a duty to convert other, it is a duty to inform thme about Islam and it is their RIGHT to choose after they had been informed.

[MuscleScience]

Yes, both of you misunderstood my intention, sorry for using such word be couldn't find a better word.

Calling a German or someone of Proud German Descent a Nazi is probably the biggest insult that you can levy against us. Yes we struggle with the past, we try to remember what happened and the lessons of how a Tyrant can come to power and effectively trick an entire population. Those 12 years (1933-1945) are the worst times of the German People and in no way does it reflect Germans of today or of the past, remember Hitler was actively fought to the very end by his own people and later his own Generals. I am sure you do not need a history lesson on this subject as it is well documented.


The reason I said so, is because Germany is supporting Israel in what she is doing of massacres against Palestinians. Israel is re-doing the holocaust on Paletiniians and Germany is supportive of that, thats what I meant.

They also support an independent Palestine.

That I don't think so bro, the only ignorance I see on here is when you and others like yourself support bunch of criminal Zionists butchering innocent civilians just because of some fvckin' bibilcal horse shit says the Jews are the people of god and the promise land...etc of this made up shit by the Jews themselves who translated the bible.

Yes, name calling is ignorant!!!

I do not believe I ever said I supported what Israel was doing all I did was question you calling them a war criminal. I was just pointing out that both sides are to blame for the current situation.

You think I am against you because I question you. You then revert to defensive measures, jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth. That is human nature and I do not fault you for that.

My Grandfather use to have a saying of some people, "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall,"

Which basically means in english that everyone is arrogant until the are proven wrong. (Fall) He told me to keep that in mind when I disagreed with people. He would say both sides believe they are right until one is proven wrong.

I am simply pointing out that there are two sides to every story, being unipolar to one side ignores the problem and does not lead to any meaningful solution.

Why do you think this thread is Jew hating?!!

Its condmening Israel for its doings, thats all. I don't see any hate, no one said the Jews must be killed, butchered, or exiled.
You are just making excuses because of the overwhelming evidences that Israel is nothing more than war criminal and illegal state.

I think when someone makes insulting comments towards another people that is in-fact hateful. As I made it a point of pointing it out. I was not referring to anyone specific.

[smokethedays]

They also support an independent Palestine.



Yes, name calling is ignorant!!!

I do not believe I ever said I supported what Israel was doing all I did was question you calling them a war criminal. I was just pointing out that both sides are to blame for the current situation.

You think I am against you because I question you. You then revert to defensive measures, jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth. That is human nature and I do not fault you for that.

My Grandfather use to have a saying of some people, "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall,"

Which basically means in english that everyone is arrogant until the are proven wrong. (Fall) He told me to keep that in mind when I disagreed with people. He would say both sides believe they are right until one is proven wrong.

I am simply pointing out that there are two sides to every story, being unipolar to one side ignores the problem and does not lead to any meaningful solution.



I think when someone makes insulting comments towards another people that is in-fact hateful. As I made it a point of pointing it out. I was not referring to anyone specific.

I already apologized about the word, if you don't accept that, then thats your problem.
sorry bro, but you are a LIER, because I didn't say a single hateful/Insulting word that I didn't already apologize for because it was a mistake. Point it out if you could, I dare you.

[MuscleScience]

I already apologized about the word, if you don't accept that, then thats your problem.
sorry bro, but you are a LIER, because I didn't say a single hateful/Insulting word that I didn't already apologize for because it was a mistake. Point it out if you could, I dare you.

I wasnt talking about you, dont get so defensive. You asked how this thread was jew hating and I was pointing out how some on here had made some blatant jew hating comments. Again I am not point anyone out. I guess I could have been more clear on that, thats my fault.

I accept your apology about the other thing, I commend you and thank you for your apology.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

lol, you guys make me laugh

[smokethedays]

I wasnt talking about you, dont get so defensive. You asked how this thread was jew hating and I was pointing out how some on here had made some blatant jew hating comments. Again I am not point anyone out. I guess I could have been more clear on that, thats my fault.

I accept your apology about the other thing, I commend you and a thank for your apology.

Thanks bro. Peace
Sorry for any offense.

[BuffedGuy]

"Invite to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and debate with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Lord (alone) knows best..." (Quran, 16:125)

"True victory is changing the hearts of your opponents by gentleness and kindness. " --Saladin (not me, the real one)

[BuffedGuy]

That I don't think so bro, the only ignorance I see on here is when you and others like yourself support bunch of criminal Zionists butchering innocent civilians just because of some fvckin' bibilcal horse shit says the Jews are the people of god and the promise land...etc of this made up shit by the Jews themselves who translated the bible.

Dear beloved brother, MuscleScience is not a Zionist. His comments have been fair and balanced. Let's give the people room to breath, God Willing. We cannot expect them to hold all our views. In fact, I encourage him to read the view of the Zionists, because I strongly believe that ONLY through hearing their views can he see the strength in our position and the weakness in theirs (the Zionists).

Forgive me for admonishing you, but let us both encourage us to good action.

Fi Aman Allah

[gst528i]

Why do you think america support the so called Zionist view. Do you agree that when extremist attack in America or American intrests wouldnt that only push americans and America to have even more support for the jewish state. Dont they realize this?
What do they hope to achieve when they plan these little attacks like shooting rockets through the border or blowing up a bus or hotels with Americans Israelis in other countries.
I am sure they aware of the strength of Israel military. So by doing these little actions, why do they jeaopardize their own people (innocent Muslims in Palestine regions).
Obviously by alot of the post made by you and other Muslims, its obvious that you know the history of your people and can predict outcomes. Don't these extremists care about the people especially innocent Muslim children that will die with their tactics. In every religion that i know of, children are considered to be closest to god. Dont they know by continuing tactic they are endangering their own children.

[MuscleScience]

Dear beloved brother, MuscleScience is not a Zionist. His comments have been fair and balanced. Let's give the people room to breath, God Willing. We cannot expect them to hold all our views. In fact, I encourage him to read the view of the Zionists, because I strongly believe that ONLY through hearing their views can he see the strength in our position and the weakness in theirs (the Zionists).

Forgive me for admonishing you, but let us both encourage us to good action.

Fi Aman Allah

To be Honest I have read a great deal on Zionism, and I find a lot of it a little hard to swallow. I can not imagine a world wide conspiracy as far reaching and elaborate as some of the so called insiders imply. That being said I do not totally discount the fact that it some form or another the conspiracy is there.

While I am not versed and as passionate about this topic as others, I indeed proclaim to be no expert at it by any means. I would love nothing more than for there to be a Zionist explanation as to why Germany lost WWI and was swindled by the european powers at the Treaty of Versailles. It looks all so perfect in hindsight and as one of the links posted earlier suggest.

I may just be close minded some on Zionistic issues, when I tell people my heritage sometimes I get the whole so your family were Nazi's question. Even from others that have obviously germanic last names. I have to explain politely that most Germans even in Nazi Germany were not Jew haters. I think thats is were a lot of my possible over sensitivity to jew bashing may come into play. The last thing anyone who identifies themselves as German or of German descent is as an anti-semite at least from my prospective.

Zwar weiß ich viel, doch möchte ich mehr wissen

[amcon]

"Zwar weiß ich viel, doch möchte ich mehr wissen "

DID YOU JUST SWEAR AT ME... HU? HU?(kidding) he he he lol - what does that say?

[MuscleScience]

"Zwar weiß ich viel, doch möchte ich mehr wissen "

DID YOU JUST SWEAR AT ME... HU? HU?(kidding) he he he lol - what does that say?

My german is a bit shaky so I may have told everyone to f- off....LOL, hence I havent spoke it in over ten years.

But from what I remember what its means which is not a literal translation to english: As much as I know, I wish I knew more.

[Odpierdol_sie!]

I say let them kill each other..... im not a fan of either party involved and it'll create some light hearted entertainment for the History channel to broadcast in years to come.