Ask the Exercise Scientist

**lex57** · 06-19-2008, 07:13 PM

i have probably a relatively easy one for you but, what is your take on anabolic steroids effect on your immune system. some say it will strengthen your immune system, which i think is wrong. i believe it weakens the immune system and it is my theory that this is the true cause behind test flu. i may be crazy but if it weakens the immune system it makes easy work for an opportunistic virus or bacteria to go to work......

**MuscleScience** · 06-19-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by lex57

i have probably a relatively easy one for you but, what is your take on anabolic steroids effect on your immune system. some say it will strengthen your immune system, which i think is wrong. i believe it weakens the immune system and it is my theory that this is the true cause behind test flu. i may be crazy but if it weakens the immune system it makes easy work for an opportunistic virus or bacteria to go to work......

Test flu is a broad ranging term used to describe being sick either a day or two after the beginning of a AAS cycle or becoming ill while "on" a cycle. One possible explanations is that the body had an inflammatory reaction to the new substance being introduced into the body. In that case this would not be caused by the weakening of the immune system it would be a normal reaction of a properly functioning immune system.

The later explanation for a later onset of illness while "on" could imply that over time that the net effect of the drug circulating in the body could suppress the immunes system thus causing the body to be more susceptible to disease via infection.

While I do not think it is clear whether or not Testosterone (T) suppresses immune function. There is evidence to suggest that it does in fact have a role in immune system health. Where as a possible explanation would be that Estrogen (E) could have a negative effect on immune health if it is to high or two low. High being because of a increase in aromatase activity due to T use or decrease aromatase due to the use of and AI.

My take on the matter is that if T suppressed the immune system or other AAS then Doctors would absolutely not use it for muscle wasting that is associated with AID's patients or in burn victims.

http://ncp.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/1...urcetype=HWCIT

Testosterones role in immune function.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...urcetype=HWCIT

**MuscleScience** · 06-19-2008, 07:52 PM

Woops forgot this link, probably the best out of all of them.

http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...urcetype=HWCIT

**lex57** · 06-19-2008, 08:01 PM

interesting. thanks.

**MuscleScience** · 06-19-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by lex57

interesting. thanks.

Thats just my take on it doesnt mean I am right or wrong. As I am not versed on the anecdotal evidence on AAS and test flu, to be honest i really do not think that there are too many medical studies that have been specifically done on humans related specifically the way a typical member on here would run a cycle. I base most of my opinion on these papers and reports of side effects or lack there of. Typically to get a paper through the review process with any type of drug or medical study. Side effects if any are reported as a matter of ethics.

**lex57** · 06-19-2008, 08:11 PM

i hear ya. sometimes i take things and run with them in my mind before i really do my homework on them and kind of make assumptions. i was just thinking that if steroids are immunosuppressive then hey maybe thats what causes test flu cuz that would be a very good link. and i just dont apply the science to it.

**MuscleScience** · 06-19-2008, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by lex57

i hear ya. sometimes i take things and run with them in my mind before i really do my homework on them and kind of make assumptions. i was just thinking that if steroids are immunosuppressive then hey maybe thats what causes test flu cuz that would be a very good link. and i just dont apply the science to it.

I think you have a very valid point. In no way can I prove you wrong nor would I even try because there is a lot of literature out there and I have not read it all obviously. I am of course open to the fact that my take is wrong or more correctly to say not supported by the literature.....LOL

**MuscleScience** · 06-25-2008, 07:01 AM

Bump for more questions today, have a free night tonight finally.....

**MuscleScience** · 08-27-2008, 08:51 PM

Bump for more questions have a few weeks of down time so hit me with em.........

**KatsMeow** · 08-27-2008, 11:10 PM

Is it beneficial to stretch prior to working out, I always thought it was but then I had a trainer tell me not to. What is your take on this, when should you stretch your muscles?

**DSM4Life** · 08-28-2008, 05:01 AM

No to stretching. Use lightweight on your exercise to warm up and go from there.

**boxer08** · 08-28-2008, 05:14 AM

Go to my thread and answer my question -
Still can't diagnose shoulder problem/any advice?

What is the best to apply to my shoulders in my situation heat, ice or both.

Is Cissus quadrangularis worth trying.

**MuscleScience** · 08-28-2008, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by KatsMeow

Is it beneficial to stretch prior to working out, I always thought it was but then I had a trainer tell me not to. What is your take on this, when should you stretch your muscles?

If your weight training stretching can actually be counter productive. It can cause a reduction in the amount of weight one can lift.

If your going to be engaging in some sort of athletic event then stretching after a good warm up is beneficial at preparing you for that particular event.

However stretching has not been shown, pre competition or pre workout to reduce the risk of injury.

**MuscleScience** · 08-28-2008, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by boxer08

Go to my thread and answer my question -
Still can't diagnose shoulder problem/any advice?

What is the best to apply to my shoulders in my situation heat, ice or both.

Is Cissus quadrangularis worth trying.

Well I know CQ, is used in traditional medicine at times to treat ulcers, but your probably asking about its reported weightloss effects. CQ can reduce the appetite of an individual, which is also one mechanism that is theorized for its protective effects against ulcerations. In NSAID studies it shows additional benefits to counteract some of the negative effects of asprin due to its anti-oxidant properties.

So to answer your question I guess it depends on what your taking it for....LOL

Oh, also I posted in your other thread>>>>>

**Reed** · 08-28-2008, 11:44 AM

First off nice thread, I'm new to all this forum stuff and its nice to see people with legit knowledge.

My first question is have you ever heard of the FST-7 routine.

My main question is I have begun a new routine that follows:
Day 1: Back/Bi/calves
Day 2: Chest/Tri/abs
Day 3: Legs/calves
Day 4: Shoulder/forearms/abs
Day 5: off
Day 6: off
I like the routine but my question is regarding training my arms. Should I wait till I finish my back and chest to then go on to the other muscles? I have followed Arnold's old routine where I went back and forth between the groups Chest/Back, Shoulders/Arms and had great success hence being 5'11'' 230 8-10bf%. I also seem to respond better when I continue to focus on building my strength instead of higher volume lighter weight. But at the end of doing my chest and back I am so fatigued I can no longer focus on my "potential" strength for the smaller groups. Example would be when fresh I can work up to repping 125 on the e-z bar preacher for 6-7 reps but fatigued maybe 85-95 with the same amount of reps. So what should I do, go back and forth or stick with the one group and pump it out then move on to the next? I have a log over in the supplement section that can give you an idea of where I am at if you read from the start.
Thanks in advance!

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 08-28-2008, 11:56 AM

If you are driving at the speed of light and you turn your headlights on, what happens?

**Reed** · 08-28-2008, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

If you are driving at the speed of light and you turn your headlights on, what happens?

Unless the basic principles of the universe discovered by Einstein are proven wrong no matter can travel the speed of light so my guess would be that it would still move forward in direction.

**T3/T4 GSR** · 08-28-2008, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

No to stretching. Use lightweight on your exercise to warm up and go from there.

However I would definetly recommend extreme stretching after working the muscle.

**MuscleScience** · 08-28-2008, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

If you are driving at the speed of light and you turn your headlights on, what happens?

If you were driving at the speed of light you wouldnt need to turn your lights on. You would be in the form of pure energy at that point.

**MuscleScience** · 08-28-2008, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Reed500

First off nice thread, I'm new to all this forum stuff and its nice to see people with legit knowledge.

My first question is have you ever heard of the FST-7 routine.

My main question is I have begun a new routine that follows:
Day 1: Back/Bi/calves
Day 2: Chest/Tri/abs
Day 3: Legs/calves
Day 4: Shoulder/forearms/abs
Day 5: off
Day 6: off
I like the routine but my question is regarding training my arms. Should I wait till I finish my back and chest to then go on to the other muscles? I have followed Arnold's old routine where I went back and forth between the groups Chest/Back, Shoulders/Arms and had great success hence being 5'11'' 230 8-10bf%. I also seem to respond better when I continue to focus on building my strength instead of higher volume lighter weight. But at the end of doing my chest and back I am so fatigued I can no longer focus on my "potential" strength for the smaller groups. Example would be when fresh I can work up to repping 125 on the e-z bar preacher for 6-7 reps but fatigued maybe 85-95 with the same amount of reps. So what should I do, go back and forth or stick with the one group and pump it out then move on to the next? I have a log over in the supplement section that can give you an idea of where I am at if you read from the start.
Thanks in advance!

I am not to familiar with that particular routine. When I develop a routine for someone I usually have a custom routine for that particular individual. Practically any routine can work for you as long as you adhere to it and it is sound in its basic principles.

For example with your arm routine. You always want to start with larger compound movements first. Some will argue that you need to pre-fatigue the muscle before a compound movement and all that jazz but its not the best way to improve strength and explosiveness. A good warmup is all you need to increase adrenaline and facilitate calcium release in the muscles for full contraction (Treppe Effect).

By working from small to big you run the risk of injury because the smaller muscles in a compound movement most generally are your supporting muscles that keep your form and posture correct.

If your fatigued to the point by the time you get to accessory lifts and they are to difficult to perform, you either need not do them or move them to another day. I notice that you train 4 on and 2 off and thats ok. Try playing around with the 2 on 1 off or go every other day to see how you recover. Some on here may argue that your overloading your CNS and you may need some additional rest.

**MuscleScience** · 08-28-2008, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by T3/T4 GSR

However I would definetly recommend extreme stretching after working the muscle.

Extreme stretching?

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 08-28-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

If you were driving at the speed of light you wouldnt need to turn your lights on. You would be in the form of pure energy at that point.

touche

**DSM4Life** · 08-28-2008, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Extreme stretching?

I was thinking the same thing.

**Lemonada8** · 08-28-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Reed500

First off nice thread, I'm new to all this forum stuff and its nice to see people with legit knowledge.

My first question is have you ever heard of the FST-7 routine.

My main question is I have begun a new routine that follows:
Day 1: Back/Bi/calves
Day 2: Chest/Tri/abs
Day 3: Legs/calves
Day 4: Shoulder/forearms/abs
Day 5: off
Day 6: off
I like the routine but my question is regarding training my arms. Should I wait till I finish my back and chest to then go on to the other muscles? I have followed Arnold's old routine where I went back and forth between the groups Chest/Back, Shoulders/Arms and had great success hence being 5'11'' 230 8-10bf%. I also seem to respond better when I continue to focus on building my strength instead of higher volume lighter weight. But at the end of doing my chest and back I am so fatigued I can no longer focus on my "potential" strength for the smaller groups. Example would be when fresh I can work up to repping 125 on the e-z bar preacher for 6-7 reps but fatigued maybe 85-95 with the same amount of reps. So what should I do, go back and forth or stick with the one group and pump it out then move on to the next? I have a log over in the supplement section that can give you an idea of where I am at if you read from the start.
Thanks in advance!

I would suggest that you do the compound lifts first because they will actually work your other muscles while doing them. EX chest before arms. When u do those auxillary lifts, if you focus on perfect form and do a weight that you can manage, this would be good because you will still be gettin the firing of the muscle fibers in your arms, and because they have alreay been kinda worked (as stabilizer muscles mostly) using correct form with full range of movement you will get a better workout on those muscle fibers.

**Lemonada8** · 08-28-2008, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

If you are driving at the speed of light and you turn your headlights on, what happens?

but if you were in a vehicle that coudl travel that fast... you wouldnt see any difference if your headlights were on or off... becasue you woudl be moving as fast as the light, so there would be no reflection off objects infront of you.

**Reed** · 08-28-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

I am not to familiar with that particular routine. When I develop a routine for someone I usually have a custom routine for that particular individual. Practically any routine can work for you as long as you adhere to it and it is sound in its basic principles.

For example with your arm routine. You always want to start with larger compound movements first. Some will argue that you need to pre-fatigue the muscle before a compound movement and all that jazz but its not the best way to improve strength and explosiveness. A good warmup is all you need to increase adrenaline and facilitate calcium release in the muscles for full contraction (Treppe Effect).

By working from small to big you run the risk of injury because the smaller muscles in a compound movement most generally are your supporting muscles that keep your form and posture correct.

If your fatigued to the point by the time you get to accessory lifts and they are to difficult to perform, you either need not do them or move them to another day. I notice that you train 4 on and 2 off and thats ok. Try playing around with the 2 on 1 off or go every other day to see how you recover. Some on here may argue that your overloading your CNS and you may need some additional rest.

First off thanks for the response. I will do as you say with the bigger group first

Yeah this isn't your traditional routine. I try to avoid working out the muscles on a monday through sunday schedule as your muscles do not "think" of that way. I got this idea from talking to Phil Heath at a show and was asking what he does. He seems like a nice guy that doesn't bs at all. He said he likes to go 4 days in a row and then take 3 day break.

So I did some thinking that from the moment I end that "week" and then start again the following "week" it will generally be 65-72 hours since the previous work out(3 days of recovery). I like to look at top bodybuilders and see what they do, their physiques are my goal. I do follow the monday through sunday schedules during "off" periods to allow full recovery. But during "on" times I HAVE to step it up, I've tried it once a week and do not progress near as fast as if I train everything twice a week. I've had so much success with Arnold's old routine. If you don't think I can recovery fast enough and see gains with a 3 on 1 off routine just check my log. I progressed.
Now for some that may be too much but it is not for me.

I do have a lack of understanding of the correlation of the CNS and workout recovery. I'm thinking rest may be the only way to fully recover the CNS. I also do the cheating suggested by Nova after my leg day of this new routine I started, I carb up and will reserve my true cheat meal for Day 5. Any other suggestions would be great.

**Reed** · 08-28-2008, 06:00 PM

Oh and no one has heard of the FST-7 routine, suppose to be real good growth simulator. Something about on your last exercise you do 7 sets of one particular exercise with only 45 second break with posing in between sets throughout the workout. I hear bits and pieces of it around other boards and its more complicated then just the few things I listed. Anyone have any ideas?????

**MuscleScience** · 08-28-2008, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Reed500;4160***

First off thanks for the response. I will do as you say with the bigger group first

Yeah this isn't your traditional routine. I try to avoid working out the muscles on a monday through sunday schedule as your muscles do not "think" of that way. I got this idea from talking to Phil Heath at a show and was asking what he does. He seems like a nice guy that doesn't bs at all. He said he likes to go 4 days in a row and then take 3 day break.

So I did some thinking that from the moment I end that "week" and then start again the following "week" it will generally be 65-72 hours since the previous work out(3 days of recovery). I like to look at top bodybuilders and see what they do, their physiques are my goal. I do follow the monday through sunday schedules during "off" periods to allow full recovery. But during "on" times I HAVE to step it up, I've tried it once a week and do not progress near as fast as if I train everything twice a week. I've had so much success with Arnold's old routine. If you don't think I can recovery fast enough and see gains with a 3 on 1 off routine just check my log. I progressed.
Now for some that may be too much but it is not for me.

I do have a lack of understanding of the correlation of the CNS and workout recovery. I'm thinking rest may be the only way to fully recover the CNS. I also do the cheating suggested by Nova after my leg day of this new routine I started, I carb up and will reserve my true cheat meal for Day 5. Any other suggestions would be great.

Bottom line if it works for you then do it. We all get caught up sometimes by thinking that if a routine worked for me then it will work for everyone else. Experimenting is the only way to tell what truely works for you. I have about two routines that I switch back and forth from throughout the year, after trying numerous routines these are the two that I respond the best to.

**Reed** · 08-28-2008, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Bottom line if it works for you then do it. We all get caught up sometimes by thinking that if a routine worked for me then it will work for everyone else. Experimenting is the only way to tell what truely works for you. I have about two routines that I switch back and forth from throughout the year, after trying numerous routines these are the two that I respond the best to.

Yep, years of trial and error is the way to go

**MuscleScience** · 09-07-2008, 02:45 PM

Have a free afternoon and evening bump for more questions.......

**Phate** · 09-07-2008, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Have a free afternoon and evening bump for more questions.......

k, how bout this, if someone under 21 was to go in and get bloodwork, MRI, etc... and it was determined that said individual's plates were closed, bloodwork was normal, and genetic potential had been/was close to being attained, would it be grounds for use of AS before the age of 21

btw, you know how i am, the more scientific babble and studies the better

also, do you mind if we turn this into a good debate if possible or would you perfer debate not be in this thread

**MuscleScience** · 09-07-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Phate

k, how bout this, if someone under 21 was to go in and get bloodwork, MRI, etc... and it was determined that said individual's plates were closed, bloodwork was normal, and genetic potential had been/was close to being attained, would it be grounds for use of AS before the age of 21

btw, you know how i am, the more scientific babble and studies the better

also, do you mind if we turn this into a good debate if possible or would you perfer debate not be in this thread

Well I would prefer not to talk about AAS related topics since this is not my area expertise unless it is purely physiological in nature, but I think this is a good debate to have.

My thinking on this topic is based on this. A lot of nasty side effects that are reported that are not exaggerated by the media do happen to individuals that have not completely gone through secondary sexual maturity. (puberty)
We all know about the premature fusion of growth plates, increase in acne and this is a big if even in the literature, mood changes.

I take from the literature and not necessarily my personal feeling on the subject that taking steroids before sexual maturity is probably risky to say the least. The reason I say not my personal feeling is that If I had to do all over again I would have jumped on when I was 18 or 19 because I saw the incredible effects that it had on some of my friends pitching ability. I was about 2 MPH on my fastball from having a shot at a Pro career. Instead now I am a know it all science nerd....LOL

I am not going to sit here and be a hypocrite and say no no no. I will try to interject my reasoning behind it not my personal feelings per say. One thing that is not entirely clear for individuals is the phycological effects it can have on the maturing brain. The Pineal gland of the brain is important gland that facilitates and eventually terminates the process of puberty. Around the late teens to early twenties the Pineal gland is signaled to shut down and it eventually calcifies and because inactive in adults or at least that is what it believed.

The Pineal Gland is an endocrine gland and secretes many different hormones durning childhood. In fact it is quite large in children and very active. Melatonin is one of its major hormones it secretes and is believed to slow the process of puberty. Testosterone or Estrogen is believed to signal the reduced secretion of melatonin thus eventually leading to full sexual development.

Now if you introduce these hormones in large doses typical of steroid cycles. How does this effect the normal maturity and development of the brain and reproductive system. These are all concerns in primary hypogonadism in children receiving hormone treatment. I do not think the literature is entirely clear as a body of evidence, though it is not something I have read up on extensively.

These are just my thoughts on using at an early age and in no way am I implying anything bad can happen my point is these are concerns that need to be thought about by young users.

**Phate** · 09-07-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Well I would prefer not to talk about AAS related topics since this is not my area expertise unless it is purely physiological in nature, but I think this is a good debate to have.

My thinking on this topic is based on this. A lot of nasty side effects that are reported that are not exaggerated by the media do happen to individuals that have not completely gone through secondary sexual maturity. (puberty)
We all know about the premature fusion of growth plates, increase in acne and this is a big if even in the literature, mood changes.

I take from the literature and not nessicarely my personal feeling on the subject that taking steroids before sexual maturity is probably risky to say the least. The reason I say not my personal feeling is that If I had to do all over again I would have jumped on when I was 18 or 19 because I saw the incredible effects that it had on some of my friends pitching ability. I was about 2 MPH on my fastball from having a shot at a Pro career. Instead now I am a know it all science nerd....LOL

I am not going to sit here and be a hypocrite and say no no no. I will try to interject my reasoning behind it not my personal feelings per say. One thing that is not entirely clear for individuals is the phycological effects it can have on the maturing brain. The Pineal gland of the brain is important gland that facilitates and eventually terminates the process of puberty. Around the late teens to early twenties the Pineal gland is signaled to shut down and it eventually calcifies and because inactive in adults or at least that is what it believed.

The Pineal Gland is an endocrine gland and secretes many different hormones durning childhood. In fact it is quite large in children and very active. Melatonin is one of its major hormones it secretes and is believed to slow the process of puberty. Testosterone or Estrogen is believed to signal the reduced secretion of melatonin thus eventually leading to full sexual development.

Now if you introduce these hormones in large doses typical of steroid cycles. How does this effect the normal maturity and development of the brain and reproductive system. These are all concerns in primary hypogonadism in children receiving hormone treatment. I do not think the literature is entirely clear as a body of evidence, though it is not something I have read up on extensively.

These are just my thoughts on using at an early age and in no way am I implying anything bad can happen my point is these are concerns that need to be thought about by young users.

very good points, i'll have to read up on the physiological effects and propose a counter-argument as right now i do not have enough backing to pose one

**MuscleScience** · 09-07-2008, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Phate

very good points, i'll have to read up on the physiological effects and propose a counter-argument as right now i do not have enough backing to pose one

Ok good, i am going to go hustle some fools on the bball court so that should give you some time......

**MuscleScience** · 09-14-2008, 03:12 PM

bump fellows, have some free time and I am bored.

**thegodfather** · 09-14-2008, 03:18 PM

What are the 3 types of cell signaling mechanisms?.... Ha i know the answer just want to see if you do =)

**MuscleScience** · 09-14-2008, 03:28 PM

Thats a pretty simple question....LOL.....Intra, extra and direct,

**MuscleScience** · 09-15-2008, 09:06 PM

bump

**thegodfather** · 09-15-2008, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Thats a pretty simple question....LOL.....Intra, extra and direct,

I was looking for G-Linked, Tyrosine-Kinase, etc... either or i suppose...

**MuscleScience** · 09-15-2008, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

I was looking for G-Linked, Tyrosine-Kinase, etc... either or i suppose...

Those are different types of second messanger systems. BTW, learning The different RAS messenger system was the damn devil....LOL

You will only ever use that again when you take the MCAT, maybe. Even as a physiologist unless your a protein researcher its useless to know.