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Thread: The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....

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    The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....

    This is one of the best articles i have read that breaks down the CKD in a layman's terms fashion. Hope it sheds some light,ive been getting alot of pms about this and hopefully it will help others understand the Ketogenic Diet...TOP




    Bodybuilding Cyclic Ketogenic Diet
    by by Ed Sturm
    This article is being written for those who are either only remotely familiar and totally unfamiliar with ketogenic dieting. The information provided here is based solely upon my own personal experiences as well as those of my wife. There are no references from medical journals or mentions of specific case studies. This is simply a real life testimony of what my wife and I have experienced with regards to ketogenic dieting.

    What is a Ketogenic Diet?

    For starters, ketotenic dieting is based upon the removal of nearly all carbohydrates from one's diet for a certain period of time. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will resort to stored fat as it's primary fuel source. Stored fat is broken down into ketones which the body then uses for energy. In order to enter this state of ketosis, one's liver glycogen must be emptied. Ingested carbohydrates are stored in the liver as glycogen, as well as in the muscles. When the liver is depleted of glycogen, a state of ketosis is achieved. Ketones are a by-product of fat burning, therefore while in a state of ketosis, the body is burning stored fat as it's main source of fuel. I'll bypass the explanation as to why this is such a positive occurrence.

    The object of a ketogenic diet is to deplete the liver of it's glycogen stores as quickly as possible so that fat burning occurs. This is done by severely restricting carbohydrates and eating only sources of proteins and fats. On a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (CKD) carbohydrate restriction lasts for a total of 5-6 days at which time a 1-2 day carbohydrate loading phase begins. The CKD is essentially the Ketogenic Diet for weightlifters, with the carbohydrate loading phase designed to replenish Muscle Glycogen stores so that adequate weight training may occur during the following week.

    Many people have brought up the issue that a low carbohydrate diet will cause lethargy and weakness. These people were not mentally strong enough to make it through the first few days until they reached a state of ketosis so they experienced the basic lethargy typically associated with low carb diets. They also did not replace any of the missing calories with fat which caused them to feel miserable due to a lack of adequate calories. They didn't give themselves or the diet a chance to adapt. Just like with anything else, there is a period of adaptation.

    This is not a low carbohydrate diet. It is essentially a NO Carbohydrate diet. While on a LOW carbohydrate diet, enough carbs are always eaten to avoid entering into a state of ketosis but not enough carbs or total calories to maintain adequate energy levels. Dropping the carbohydrate count further and raising the fat calories will allow the body to enter ketosis and use ketones, or stored fat as fuel. While in a state of ketosis, one feels energetic and does not experience the general lethargy found with basic LOW carbohydrate diets. Ketones also enable one to maintain regulated insulin levels throughout the day which again will cause one to feel energetic. Below we can see the difference between a basic low carb diet and the Ketogeinc Diet.

    Basic LOW Carb Diet:
    weakness
    lethargy
    low insulin levels
    constant hunger
    moderate fat burning
    muscle loss
    low fat intake
    excessively low total calories
    Ketogenic Diet:

    energy
    workout intensity
    feelings of well-being
    full and satisfied
    high fat intake
    high level of fat burning
    minimal muscle loss
    total calories no more than 500 below maintenance
    Clearly it is obvious which diet is more beneficial as far as fat burning, retaining muscle and general feelings of well being. Plus, with the ketogenic diet, you actually get to eat more food.

    How it Works

    Now don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to "sell" anyone on a ketogenic diet and there is no product we are pushing here. This article is simply to give people another option; one that my wife and I have had a tremendous amount of success with. Ketogenic dieting is not easy as eliminating carbohydrates from one's daily eating habits is quite difficult. It requires structure, planning and dedication. Many foods are carbohydrate laden that the average person is not even aware of such as fruits and condiments. Basically, on a ketogenic diet one eats meat and fish all day long. It does have it's advantages though as normally restricted foods such as steak, whole eggs, pork chops, pork skins, sausages, meatloaf, burgers (without the bun of course) and salmon are not only permitted, but they are encouraged.

    It is quite simple to slip up without even knowing it on this diet. First, understand that even a minimal amount of carbohydrates will shift your body right out of the ketosis/fat burning mode. This is a diet that requires strict attention to detail and absolutely NO cheating during the week. The cheating will come soon enough and plenty enough on the weekends. There is no such thing as just a little bite of that bagel of just one cookie. This diet works absolute wonders as far as fat burning goes but it must be done properly or results will be minimal at best.

    Carb Depletion

    During the carbohydrate depletion phase (during the week) carbohydrate foods such as fruit, breads, grains, candies, cookies, deserts, catsup, dressings, cereals, etc., etc. are not permitted at all. One must check the label of everything to ensure that there are no carbs. The key is to keep the daily carb count of 20-40 per day. Some people even require less than 20 to achieve ketosis. This basically allows you a total of roughly 4-8 grams of carbohydrates per meal which would preferably come in the form of green vegetables. Watch the dressings as they all have carbohydrates with the exception of vinegar. The only condiments that you can be safe with are mustard and regular, whole mayonnaise. (not low fat or light)

    Workouts

    While on a CKD, one must tailor their workouts to center around the diet. The carb depletion would begin on Monday and between Monday-Wednesday, the entire body would be trained with weights. In other words, condense the workouts so that they are completed by Wednesday. This will exhaust both your liver glycogen as well as your muscle glycogen. Cardio may continue to be done all week. At the end of the week, one would perform a grueling full body weight training session after which time the carb loading would begin.

    Carb Loading

    The carbohydrate loading may last anywhere between 12-36 hours although I feel it is best to minimize it to 12-18 hours. It consists of basically a full day of cheating (but there are rules). You need to consume carbohydrates in each meal ranging from 40-120, depending upon the person. The protein stays high but fats must be limited or the total calories will be too high and new fat will be stored. The idea is refill muscle glycogen so that workouts may be performed with some amount of intensity the following week. Fruits are to be avoided as fructose will only refill liver glycogen which will prevent ketosis from being reestablished until later in the week. After the carb load is complete, the depletion phase begins again until the next weekend. During the carb load period, any carbs may be eaten so long as the fat is kept moderately low and there is no fructose (fruit sugar) consumed.

    Results

    While on a CKD, it is quite common for users to experience total fat loss of up to 2-3 pounds per week. Due to the carbohydrate cycling and manipulation, one will experience weight fluctuations ranging from 2-10 pounds during the carb loading phase. Personally, I went from 10% body fat to 5% in 8 weeks with minimal muscle loss while my wife went from 20% to 15% in an astonishing five weeks. The keys are not cheating at all during the week, knowing the nutritional content of the foods you eat, maintaining structure and not overdoing it on the weekends.

    This article is intended to supply the reader with a basic introduction to the principles of ketogenic dieting. There is much more information available and I strongly suggest that prior to starting a diet of this sort, the reader purchase one of the following books listed below which will shed more light upon the subject. There are additional variables such as vitamin and supplement information, fiber consumption, additional ketogenic aids and potential dangers which need to be addressed prior to beginning a ketogenic diet.

    1) The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald

    2) Body Opus by Dan Duchaine

    3) New Diet Revolution by Dr. Atkins

    This article is not meant to act as or replace the advice of a medical professional. Many medical professionals do not share the belief that ketogenic diets are safe and effective. Please visit with your Doctor prior to beginning any diet program.

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    good post---put my wife on this diet after u emailed me the book---she consume 25-30 carbs a day in the form of broccoli--havnt checked her bf but she lost 10lb in 9 days--she has been on it 2 weeks monday---weight loss has slowed somewhat---most of her cals are lean protein and natty pb and udos oil---she doesnt train weights but she does do cardio 5 days a week-----my question is should she incorporate a re-feed day now that the weightloss has slowed----and if so when should she do this and would it b for 1 day instead of the 2 days----thanks TOP
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    MG yes she does need a refeed! let her do it friday evening-saturday night to replenish glycogen

    "I feel it is best to minimize it to 12-18 hours. It consists of basically a full day of cheating (but there are rules). You need to consume carbohydrates in each meal ranging from 40-120, depending upon the person. The protein stays high but fats must be limited or the total calories will be too high and new fat will be stored. The idea is refill muscle glycogen so that workouts may be performed with some amount of intensity the following week. Fruits are to be avoided as fructose will only refill liver glycogen which will prevent ketosis from being reestablished until later in the week. After the carb load is complete, the depletion phase begins again until the next weekend. During the carb load period, any carbs may be eaten so long as the fat is kept moderately low and there is no fructose (fruit sugar) consumed. "
    Last edited by **TOP**; 01-21-2010 at 05:29 PM.

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    Hey Top. She only does cardio. No weights. Does this matter

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    also lets see some pics...............

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    She NEEDS to weight train. This helps allow muscle glycogen depletion. Theoretically women shouldnt train any different than men. My wife trains the same way i do! Also with the more muscle she has the more calories she will burn in the long run.

    Pics will be soon, it should be interesting!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    She NEEDS to weight train. This helps allow muscle glycogen depletion. Theoretically women shouldnt train any different than men. My wife trains the same way i do! Also with the more muscle she has the more calories she will burn in the long run.

    Pics will be soon, it should be interesting!!!
    yea i know she should---but she wont----we did p90x together and she didnt like the way her muscles grew even though it was high intensity and low weight high reps..they prob didnt grow but she said that it made em thick or somethin---trust me ive told her----so now thats out of the way---what do u think about the re-feed if shes only doin cardio-----glycogen levels should still b depleted after 3 weeks of 25-30gr carbs a day--plus the 45 min cardio---keep in mind---she only wants to lose another 10lb--------she aint into it the most of us are

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    You have a PM sir!

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    Great post Top! I do have a question however. A buddy of mine is extremely interested in starting a keto diet to drop body fat and he's just begun a cycle. He's impatient (started a cycle at 18% bf) but pretty dedicated. I've urged him not to pursue a keto diet but I may as well ask an expert -

    ARE SUBSTANTIAL LBM GAINS POSSIBLE WITH THIS TYPE OF DIET?!

    I've never been able to make gains on keto diets but I've never followed them this precisely or put enough emphasis on refeeds. I may forward him this post.

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    I have a question about the workouts? I Use A Mon-wed-Fri push pull/pull legs routine, so what you are saying is to do these workouts Mon-Tue-Wed, then do cardio Thurs Fri, and on saturday do a Full body workout???

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    Basically, you want to 100% deplete your stored glycogen stores before your refeed for 2 basic reasons. 1- to maximize fat loss in those days leading up to the refeed. 2- to maximize effectiveness of the refeed and ensure that none of the consumed carbs spill over into fat stores on said day.

    Think of the mon-wedns split like this: back/chest, legs/shoulders, arms... then when you've literally burned through your stored glycogen on those intense workouts, you do cardio thurs, friday. The cardio will be a 100% more effective fat loss tool than if u had any sugar/glycogen to burn. I imagine the logic behind the full-body workout the day before the refeed is simply to take fat loss over the top towards the 3-4 lb. range. Plus, you'll likely be in ketosis by this point so you'll have some energy for it. Don't expect to be stronger though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damienm05 View Post
    Great post Top! I do have a question however. A buddy of mine is extremely interested in starting a keto diet to drop body fat WHICH I T WILL DO!and he's just begun a cycle WHICH TEST HAS BEEN PROVEN TO HELP STORE GLYCOGEN BETTER (1) . He's impatient (started a cycle at 18% bf) but pretty dedicated YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER!. I've urged him not to pursue a keto diet but I may as well ask an expert -WHY NOT?

    ARE SUBSTANTIAL LBM GAINS POSSIBLE WITH THIS TYPE OF DIET?!
    YES/NO iTS BEEN PROVEN THAT KETO DIETS HELP LOSE BF WHILE MAINTAING MUSCLE MASS OR AT LEAST RETAINING THE MOST MASS POSSIBLE BUT IF HE IS STILL 18%BF HE SHOULD BE RESTRICTING CALORIES TO LOSE HIS BF,AND WITH HIM ON GEAR THAT WILL HELP EVEN MORE.

    AS FAR AS BUILDING NEW LBM ON A CALORIE RESTRICTED DIET, I DOUBT IT.

    KNOW IF HE WERE TO GET HIS BF LOWER TO A REASONABLE NUMBER(8-12) THEN I WOULD SAY YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO BUILD NEW MUSCLE BUT ONLY BY INCREASING CALORIES WHILE STAYING ON THE KETO DIET. dOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

    I've never been able to make gains on keto diets but I've never followed them this precisely or put enough emphasis on refeeds. WELL WHAT WERE YOU DOING,HOW MANY CALS WERE YOU INTAKING WHAT WAS THE REFEED LIKE ETC..ETC...I may forward him this post.
    Iv seen alot of guys think that they are growing LBM and are only adding water or bf to themselves,to build LBM it takes a while even with gear its not a magic potion. As you know im natural, but have been around the sauce seen for a while and also have trained guys on it. What we do is a marathon not a sprint. Hope this helps...TOP


    (1) http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...tract/51/4/293

    This was the only reference i could find at the moment,i have to piss!!
    Last edited by **TOP**; 01-20-2010 at 02:51 PM.

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    That helps a lot actually man. Thank you.

    As for my own experience with Keto diets; my cals were quite high. How could they not be?! I look for any excuse to stuff my face with avocados, smoked salmon, and chia seed concoctions. I think I always just skimped on the refeed. I'd only do it 1 day per week and only for my first few meals of said day. For example meals 1-4 would contain 80 grams of complex carbs and then I'd taper off to pro/fat nutrition. In retrospect, i see why I always felt like I was losing strength.

    On another note, my own cycle is coming to a close here pretty soon and then I'm gonna eat like crazy throughout my PCT phase to ensure maintenance of gains. If I end up getting back over 10% bf, which i foresee as likely during that time; I'll definitely try this method with serious refeeds.

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    In order to maintain strength the carb load is a must~! My first four meals at the beginning of my carb load are 3360 calories and in the whole of the carb load i can reach up to 10,000 cals. So if your gonna do CKD expect to eat like you should and you should expect to see progress like you will!...TOP

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    In order to maintain strength the carb load is a must~! My first four meals at the beginning of my carb load are 3360 calories and in the whole of the carb load i can reach up to 10,000 cals. So if your gonna do CKD expect to eat like you should and you should expect to see progress like you will!...TOP
    Well said. Are all those cals via carb/pro or do you still eat fats as you normally would mon-fri?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damienm05 View Post
    Well said. Are all those cals via carb/pro or do you still eat fats as you normally would mon-fri?
    mostly carbs, mod pro, low-low fat!

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    Hey TOP can you post your typical diet plan while on CKD for a week?Or if you have it somewhere gimme the link.The only thing im lacking at the moment is a good mixture of what foods to eat.And honestly i'd like too see the timing of the carb load from someone who has first hand experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3day View Post
    Hey TOP can you post your typical diet plan while on CKD for a week?Or if you have it somewhere gimme the link.The only thing im lacking at the moment is a good mixture of what foods to eat.And honestly i'd like too see the timing of the carb load from someone who has first hand experience.
    You also have a PM, there is a book you will like if you read...TOP

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    top any chance i can have a look at this book m8 gets abit frustrating at times i diet to get rid of that lasrt bit of body fat and end up losing muscle as well does my head in m8 cant i ripp upwith no muscle loss????

    sry not high jacking bud lol!

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    so mon-wed do all body parts

    friday do a full body along with cardio and cardio the day before?

    then carb load for saturday and sunday...? or just saturday? and if just saturday what do nyou do on sunday?

    also im guessing you dont workout on sat and sun?

    and is it ok to do cardio anyday mon-fri, or even on sat and sun?

    ---

    also what about diet products..? the ones with 0 carbs, fat protein, everything
    Last edited by americanoak; 01-20-2010 at 05:56 PM. Reason: anotrher q

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    Quote Originally Posted by binsser View Post
    top any chance i can have a look at this book m8 gets abit frustrating at times i diet to get rid of that lasrt bit of body fat and end up losing muscle as well does my head in m8 cant i ripp upwith no muscle loss????
    sry not high jacking bud lol!
    what??????

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    so mon-wed do all body parts BREAK THEM UP IN A SPLIT FASHION,LIKE MON-CHEST SHO TRIS,TUES LEGS,WED BACK AND BIS

    friday do a full body along with cardio and cardio the day before? NO CARDIO FRIDAY,UNLESS YOU WANNA DO IT IN THE AM MON-THUR CARDIO FINE..AM AND PWO,OR JUST CARDIO ANYTIME.
    then carb load for saturday and sunday...? or just saturday? and if just saturday what do nyou do on sunday? THE CARB LOAD STARTS RIGHT AFTER THE FRIDAY FULL BODY WORKOUT AND SHOULD GO FRI-SATURDAY TILL BED.

    also im guessing you dont workout on sat and sun? THERE ARE VARIATIONS THAT YOU CAN WORKOUT ON THE CARB DAY(LYLE MCDONALD ULTIMATE DIET 2 DOES THIS) I PERSONALLY DONT DO THAT.

    and is it ok to do cardio anyday mon-fri, or even on sat and sun? YOU CAN DO CARDIO MON-FRI,I DONT DO CARDIO WHILE CARB LOADING

    My typical friday looks like this deplete workout,pwo 150grams maltodextrin for meals 1,2,3,4 then 100grams of carbsfor meals5,6,7,8, it gradually decreases down from simple to more complex like oatmeal,bagels sweet potato fries etc..,my fats stay very low,my protein is 30% maybe and the rest are all carbs. It may sound fun but it can be a pain in the ass.I also dont stop eating throughout the night so friday its deplete,eat at 4pm,6pm,8pm,10pm,midnight,2am,4am,6am,8ametc...... This is how i do it,i like it this way it allows me to cut my carb load in half due to me eating at night.

    Also alot of thanks to mikexxl for the corn flakes idea!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    She NEEDS to weight train. This helps allow muscle glycogen depletion. Theoretically women shouldnt train any different than men. My wife trains the same way i do! Also with the more muscle she has the more calories she will burn in the long run.

    Pics will be soon, it should be interesting!!!
    Great posts and great responses in this thread! Especially the one above! Finally god. Great Job TOP, keep them coming

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    hmmmm so you start your carb load after your full body workout on friday? what do you do the rest of sat and sunday?

    also how do diet produects fit into this, the 0 protien, fat, and carb products

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    hmmmm so you start your carb load after your full body workout on friday? yes what do you do the rest of sat and sunday? all day sat i have carbs every 2 hours into sunday around 4pm,after that i switch back to keto and get ready for the mon workout,which you will find strenght goes through the roof due to glycogen supercompensation.

    Also how do diet produects fit into this, the 0 protien, fat, and carb products define diet products? Give me an example what are you wanting to take?
    top~

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    ok thanks alot.

    By diet products i mean like... diet soda, diet food that has no calories etc. like foods that should have carbs but dont anymore cause they are made diet

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    also what should i do if i dont want to eat all through the night (or.. extremly early sat morning like u said 2 am 4 am etc.) and start when i wake up around 9

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    Ok so is the only difference between this and a regular keto diet we have all seen is that you take in 10,000 calories and mostly in the form of carbs on the carb up day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    also what should i do if i dont want to eat all through the night (or.. extremly early sat morning like u said 2 am 4 am etc.) and start when i wake up around 9
    Diet drinks are fine but i would say drink 1-2 gallons of water daily first and foremost!!

    If you dont wanna eat throughout the night thats fine also ive seen where people have not eaten through the night and still had very simular results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    Ok so is the only difference between this and a regular keto diet we have all seen is that you take in 10,000 calories and mostly in the form of carbs on the carb up day?
    Yep pretty much,staying in ketosis for the majority of people seems to make them weaker opposed to having a carb load before the workout week. Also im not saying everyone needs 10k either thats just what it is for me some will have higher some will have lower!..TOP

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    great, so i think i have everything set, i start loading after my workout on friday, all the way through saturday untill a little bit into sunday then start keto again

    that sound right? if im only saposed to load for 12-18 hours is this like total time awake and this is minus the time i am sleeping early sat morning and the night going into sunday? so im carbing a little on friday, all sat, little on sunday

    ---

    also what do you eat after a workout if u dont have carbs? this isnt bad?
    Last edited by americanoak; 01-20-2010 at 08:03 PM.

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    Thanks for the post TOPS! very imformational. I sent u a pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR G lady View Post
    Thanks for the post TOPS! very imformational. I sent u a pm
    Better try again cuz i didnt get it!

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    i heard keto should only be used for obese people trying to cut weight, not someone who is already around the 12%bf mark, is this true?

    if its not true, then why wouldnt this just be the CUT DIET sticky that many should follow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firsttimer22 View Post
    i heard keto should only be used for obese people trying to cut weight, not someone who is already around the 12%bf mark, is this true?

    if its not true, then why wouldnt this just be the CUT DIET sticky that many should follow?
    not only be used. But I don't recommend under 12%bf that's for sure. But most people on here are not below 12...

    also the stickies suck for the most part. they need an overhaul

  36. #36
    **TOP**'s Avatar
    **TOP** is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by firsttimer22 View Post
    i heard keto should only be used for obese people trying to cut weight, not someone who is already around the 12%bf mark, is this true?

    if its not true, then why wouldnt this just be the CUT DIET sticky that many should follow?
    I have to disagree with TWIST.Actually ive seen this diet get people in the single digits. Its not a normal keto diet ,there are a few different keto diets KETO WHICH IS SKD,TKD,CKD, and im sure there are more.So to say KETO is only for people over x amount of bodyfat is debatable,beacause there are many ways to run this My opinion is that it would work just as good for an obese person as it would for someone trying to get into single digits. The best ckd books that i know of are mentioned in the article :The Bodyopus,And The Anabolic Diet, these were written by a diet "GURU" Dan Duchaine and the second was written by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale google both of these people and you will find some interesting stuff on them!...TOP
    Last edited by **TOP**; 01-21-2010 at 07:10 AM.

  37. #37
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    ^Agreed with TOP. It doesn't matter what your bf is, really.

    If it's done right, you'll loose fat without loosing much, if any, LBM.

  38. #38
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    hey TOP how bout posting ur wifes diet or pm me if u will kind sir

  39. #39
    baddgsx is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks TOP , this info is what i definetely needed. Just finished bulking up and want to get rid of my lower belly fat. Couple questions if you can help me out.

    Whats the formula for calculating how much good fat is needed per 1lb of body weight?

    Also, Ive been eating lean chicken, salmon, and egg whites for protein. For fats ive been just taking 2-3 tablespoons of flax seed oil. Can i eat pepperoni? Are fats in pepperoni acceptable as good fats to get as lean as you?

    Can you pm me your diet eating plan too?

    My goal is to get into the single digits.
    5'9"
    204lbs
    i dont know my correct body fat percentage but i will try to find out tomarro. I dont want to make up a number.

    Thanks ,
    Chris
    Last edited by baddgsx; 01-21-2010 at 12:44 PM.

  40. #40
    firsttimer22 is offline Associate Member
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    so top,

    the keto you posted, if followed correctly, could yeild single digit body fat numbers?

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