HGH log for everyone!

[Hazard]

I'm finding that the T3 combined with cardio is helping A LOT! Just wondering if T4 would be a better option long term.....

~Haz~

[babyface770]

guys where do you usually hit ?

i mean how to avoid scar tissues ?



and i had my 2 hits today

iv having my 2.5 before bed time ..i had my ultimate meal an hour ago .. does it matter when can i have my protien shake before bed time ? wait 30 mins after the shot or doesnt really make a difference ?

[marcus300]

Here they are.....




~Haz~

Thats one hell of a cock on you Haz

[marcus300]

guys where do you usually hit ?

i mean how to avoid scar tissues ?



and i had my 2 hits today

iv having my 2.5 before bed time ..i had my ultimate meal an hour ago .. does it matter when can i have my protien shake before bed time ? wait 30 mins after the shot or doesnt really make a difference ?

Rotate it around your lower abs sub-q

[bjpennnn]

looking really solid haz

[Xtralarg]

I'm finding that the T3 combined with cardio is helping A LOT! Just wondering if T4 would be a better option long term.....

~Haz~

Have a read of this, it was posted here some time ago.....still worth thinking about though.

Thyroid Hormone + Growth Hormone
(If You Aren’t Using T4 with Your GH, You’re Not Doing It Right)

by Anthony Roberts with James Daemon, Ph.D.

Anthony Roberts has been researching anabolic steroids for over a decade and is the author of the new ebook, Beyond Steroids, as well as the reference book, Anabolic Steroids : Ultimate Research Guide. He began his research at the age of seventeen while he was a competitive martial artist, ultimately winning a silver medal in his state martial arts tournament in the black belt division.His firsthand experience in steroids began after he switched sports and began playing rugby, in which he ultimately made two consecutive appearances at the hooker position in the national collegiate all-star games.

Anabolic Steroid Books
Anabolics 2006 by William Llewellyn - Regarded as the undisputed mother of all steroid reference manuals! Pro bodybuilders, world-class powerlifters, Olympic competitors, and professional athletes alike have relied on ANABOLICS for the better part of a decade.

Anabolic Steroids: The Ultimate Research Guide by Anthony Roberts - This book isn’t another dry technical manual that will have you asking more questions than when you first starting reading it. It has been written in a straight forward and conversational style that you will understand

Legal Muscle by Rick Collin - The ultimate anabolic steroid resource, covering all aspects of non-medical anabolic steroid use under American law. It's essential reading for natural and "juiced" athletes alike.

Recent Articles
Winstrol - Oral versus Injectable by Anthony Roberts (June 2006)

Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism by Michael Scally, MD (April 2006)

Designing an Anabolic Steroid Cycle by Anthony Roberts (March 2006)

Should Nolvadex be Avoided at All Cost? by Dharkam (January 30, 2006)

Masteron As An Anti-Estrogen by Anthony Roberts (January 23, 2006)

Steroids and Red Blood Cells by William Llewellyn (January 3, 2006)

Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts (November 14, 2005)

Testosterone for Women: Waiting for the Female Aphrodisiac by John Hoberman, PhD (August 14, 2005)

Anabolic Steroids and Suicide: A Brief Review of the Evidence by Jack Darkes, PhD (July 19, 2005)

Dopers in Uniform - Cops on Steroids by John Hoberman, PhD (May 22, 2005)

Multimedia
HBO Real Sports "Anabolic Steroids Can Be Used Safely..."

Virtually everybody from sportswriters and talk-show hosts to league executives and U.S. Congressmen has weighed in on the subject of steroid use. In a tell-all book that made headlines this spring, former baseball star Jose Canseco wrote about the positive effects of steroids in reasonable doses. Was he right? Armen Keteyian, who has been reporting on illegal substances in sports for the past five years, investigates the belief held by some scientists that steroids, when properly administered, cause no harm in adults. Downloadable Video 44 MB




Posted July 23, 2006. Originally published at http://www.*************.net)

Discussion of pharmaceutical agents below is presented for information only. Nothing here is meant to take the place of advice from a licensed health care practitioner. Consult a physician before taking any medication.

Quite some time ago, I wrote a book on Anabolics, and since then, I’ve received quite a bit of feedback on it. Some of the information contained in the book is based on the 50-60 profiles I completed for Steroid.com’s main page. As a result, I get feedback on certain portions of the book from people who have read them online.

When someone takes the time to send an e-mail to Steroid.com or AnabolicBooks LLC, they’re screened, and eventually some of them make their way to my e-mail account. AnabolicBooks LLC is publisher- a little known fact is that my book is actually wasn’t edited by me, nor do I own the rights to any of it. When they forward an e-mail to me, I typically consider it very carefully, and reply to the original sender. If amendments or additions are useful for anything I’ve previously written (readers frequently send me recently published studies), I typically reply and thank the person for their help.

This time, something odd happened. I was forwarded an e-mail from AnabolicBooks, and the reader seemed to know what he was talking about, but (I thought) mistaken about interactions between Growth Hormone and Thyroid medication. I took a look at the e-mail, and knew that I could quickly find a study that I had saved previously, to send to the reader, to verify that the claims in my work on GH were sound.

In this particular case- James Daemon, PhD- was the reader, and was correct in his assessment of the interaction between thyroid hormone and Growth Hormone. And, in direct contradiction, so was I. Thyroid medication decreases the anabolic effect of Growth Hormone. And it increases it.

Huh?

There’re some leaps here, because research in some of the necessary areas is sketchy (or not done yet), but if you read the entirety of this article, you’ll learn how to get a significantly more gains from Growth Hormone, for pennies a day, by the addition of a readily available (and cheap) addition to it. And yeah, it’s a drug you can get anywhere on the ‘net, very easily. And no, it’s not a steroid.

In fact, I’ll go so far as to say you’re throwing away a substantial portion of your gains from growth hormone if you are not using this drug with it.

Ok…I’ll explain things a bit further. First, a brief explanation of Thyroid Hormone as well as Growth Hormone may be necessary.

Your thyroid gland secretes two hormones that are going to be of primary importance in understanding Thyroid/GH interaction. The first is thyroxine (T4) and the second is triiodothyronine (T3). T3 is frequently considered the physiologically active hormone, and consequently the one on which most athletes and bodybuilders focus their energies on. T4, on the other hand, is converted in peripheral tissue into T3 by the enzymes in the deiodinase group, of which there are three types- the three iodothyronine deiodinase either catalyze the initiation (D1, D2) or termination (D3) of thyroid hormone effects. The majority of the body's T3 (about 80%) comes from this conversion via the first two types of deiodinase, while conversion to an inactive state is accomplished by the third type.

It’s important to note that not all of the body’s T4 is converted to T3, however- some remains unconverted. The secretion of T4 is under the control of Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which is produced by the pituitary gland. TSH secretion is in turn controlled through release of Thyrotropin Releasing Hormone which is produced in your hypothalamus. So, when T3 levels go up, TSH secretion is suppressed, due to the body’s self regulatory system known as the "negative feedback loop" . This is also the mechanism whereby exogenous thyroid hormone suppresses natural thyroid hormone production. However, it should be noted that thyroid stimulating hormone (like all other hormones) can not work in a vacuum. TSH also requires the presence of Insulin or Insulin-like Growth Factor to stimulate thyroid function (1) When thyroid hormone is present without either insulin or IGF-1, it has no physiological effect (ibid).

Most people think that T3 is just a physiologically active hormone that regulates bodyfat setpoint and has some minor anabolic effects, but in actuality, in some cases of delayed growth in children, T3 is actually too low, while GH levels are normal, and this has a growth limiting effect on several tissues (2) This could be due to T3’s ability to stimulate the proliferation of IGF-1 mRNA in many tissues (which would, of course, be anabolic), or it could be due to the synergistic effect T3 has on GH, specifically on regulation of the growth hormone gene. Although it is largely overlooked in the world of performance enhancement, regulation of the growth hormone response is predominantly determined by positive control of growth hormone gene transcription which is proportional to the concentration of thyroid hormone-receptor complexes, which are influenced by T3 levels. (3)

At this point, just to give you a better understanding of what’s going on, I think it’s prudent to also give a brief explanation of Growth Hormone (GH) as well.

Your body’s GH is regulated by many internal factors, such as hormones and enzymes. hormones. A change in the level of your body’s GH output begins in the hypothalamus with somatostatin (SS) and growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH). Somatostatin exerts its effect at the pituitary to decrease GH output, while GHRH acts at the pituitary to increase GH output. Together these hormones regulate the level of GH you have in your body. In many cases, GH deficiency presents with a low level of T3, and normal T4(4). This is of course because conversion of T4-T3 is partially dependant on GH (and to some degree GH stimulated IGF-1), and it’s ability to stimulate that conversion process of T4 into T3.

Interestingly, the hypothalamus isn’t the only place where SS is contained; the thyroid gland also contains Somatostatin-producing cells. This is of interest to us, because in the case of the thyroid, it’s been noted that certain hormones which were previously thought only to govern GH secretion can also influence thyroid hormone output as well. SS can directly act to inhibit TSH secretion or it may act on the hypothalamus to inhibit TRH secretion. So when you add GH into your body from an outside source, you are triggering the body into releasing SS, because your body no longer needs to produce its own supply of GH…and unfortunately, the release of SS can also inhibit TSH, and therefore limit the amount of T4 your body produces.

But that’s not the only interaction we see between the thyroid and Growth Hormone.

As we learned in high-school Biology class, the body likes to maintain homeostasis, or "normal" operating conditions. This is the body’s version of the status quo, and it fights like hell to maintain the comfort of the status quo (much like moderators on most steroid discussion boards). What we see with thyroid/GH interplay is that physiological levels of circulating thyroid hormones are necessary to maintain normal pituitary GH secretion, due to their directly stimulatory actions. However, when serum concentrations of thyroid hormone increase above the normal range we see an increase in hypothalamic somatostatin action, which suppresses pituitary GH secretion and overrides any stimulatory effects that the thyroid hormone may have had on GH. The suppression of GH secretion by thyroid hormones is probably mediated at the hypothalamic level by a decrease in GHRH release(5).

In addition, as IGF-I production is increased in the hypothalamus after T3 administration and T3 may participate in IGF-1 mediated negative feedback of GH by triggering either increased somatostatin tone and/or decreased GHRH production (6). IGF, interestingly, has the ability to mediate some of T3’s effects independent of GH, but not to the same degree GH can (7.) In fact, IGF-I production is increased in the hypothalamus after T3, administration it may plausibly participate in negative feedback by triggering either increased somatostatin tone and/or decreased GHRH production. So we know that GH lowers T4 (more about this in a sec), but an increase in T3 upregulates GH receptors (8) as well as IGF-1 receptors (9,10).

As can be previously stated, and due to the ability of GH to convert inactive T4 into active T3, GH administration in healthy athletes shows us an entirely predicatble increase in mean free T3 (fT3), and a decrease in mean free T4 (fT4) levels.(11)




Interaction between GH, IGF-I, T3, and GC. GH stimulates hepatic IGF-I secretion and local production of growth plate IGF-I, and exerts direct actions in the growth plate. Circulating T3 is derived from the thyroid gland and by enzymatic deiodination of T4 in liver and kidne.. The regulatory 5'-DI and 11ßHSD type 2 enzymes may also be expressed in chondrocytes to control local supplies of intracellular T3 and GC. Receptors for each hormone (GHR, IGF-IR, TR, GR) are expressed in growth plate chondrocytes.

So, with the use of GH, what we see is an increased conversion of T4-T3, and possible inhibition of Thyroid Releasing Hormone by Somatostatin, and therefore even though T3 levels may rise, there is no increase in T4 (logically, we see a decrease). Now, as we’ve seen, GH is HIGHLY synergistic with T3 in the body, and as a mater of fact, if you’ve been paying any attention up until this point, you’ll note that the limiting factor on GH’s ability to exert many of it’s effects, is mediated by the amount of T3 in the body.

As noted before, T3 enhances many effects of GH by several mechanisms, including (but not limited to): increasing IGF-1 levels, IGF-1 mRNA levels, and finally by actually mediating the control of the growth hormone gene transcription process as seen below:


Comparison of the kinetics of L-T3-receptor binding abundance to changes in the rate of transcription of the GH gene.(3)

As you can see, T3 levels are directly correlative to GH gene transcription. The scientists who conducted the study which provided the graph above concluded that the amount of T3 present is a regulatory factor on how much GH gene transcription actually occurs. And gene transcription is what actually gives us the effects from GH. This last fact really seems to shed some light on why we need T3 levels to be supraphysiological if we’re going to be using supraphysiological levels of GH, right? Otherwise, the GH we’re using is going to be limited by the amount of T3 our body produces. However, since we’re taking GH, and it is converting more T4 into T3, T4 levels are lowered substantially, and this is the problem with GH. and may actually be THE limiting factor on GH…if we assume that at least some of GH’s effects are enhanced by thyroid hormone, and specifically T3, then what we are looking at is the GH that has been injected is being limited by a lack of T3. But that doesn’t make sense, because if we use T3 + GH, we get a decrease in the anabolic effect of GH.

This is where Mr. Daemon, who had contacted me via an e-mail to my publisher, about Thyroid + GH interaction, was able to shed some light on things. You see, I knew that it couldn’t just be the actual presence of enough T3 along with the GH that was limiting GH’s anabolic effect, because, simply adding T3 to a GH cycle will reduce the anabolic effect of the GH (12.).

Originally, he had said to me that T3 was synergistic with GH, wheras I said that T3 actually reduced the anabolic effects of GH- now I realize we were both correct. Logically this presents a bit of a problem, which I believe can be solved. This came from reading several studies provided to me by Dr.Daemon. the trend I was seeing was that even when Growth Hormone therapy was used, T3 levels needed to be elevated in order to treat several conditions caused by a lack of natural growth hormone. And even if the patient was on GH, T3 levels still needed to be elevated. And what I noticed was that those levels were elevated successfully by using supplemental T4 but not T3.

Here’s why I think this is:

Additional T3 is not all that’s needed here. What’s needed is the actual conversion process of T4-T3, and the deiodinase presence and activity that it involves. This is because Local 5'-deiodination of l-thyroxine (T4) to active the thyroid hormone 3,3',5-tri-iodothyronine (T3) is catalyzed by the two 5'-deiodinase enzymes (D1 and D2). These enzymes not only "create" T3 out of T4, but actually regulates various T(3)-dependent functions in many tissues including the anterior pituitary and liver. So when there is an excess of T3 in the body, but normal levels of T4, the body’s thyroid axis sends a negative feedback signal., and produces less (D1 and D2) deiodinase, but more of the D3 type, which signals the cessation of the T4-T3 conversion process, and is inhibitory of many of the synergistic effects that T3 has! Remember, Type 3 iodothyronine deiodinase (D3) is the physiologic INACTIVATOR of thyroid hormones and their effects (13) and is well known to have independent interaction with growth factors (which is what GH and IGF-1 are).(14) This is because with adequate T4 and excess T3, (D1 and D2) deiodinase is no longer needed for conversion of T4 into T3, but levels of D3 deiodinase will be elevated. When there is less of the first two types of deidinase, it would seem that the T3 which has been converted to T4 can not exert it’s protein sparing (anabolic effects), as those first two types are responsible for mediation of many of the effects T3 has on the body. This seems to be one of the ways deiodinase contributes to anabolism in the presence of other hormones.

All of this would explain why anecdotally we see bodybuilders who use T3 lose a lot of muscle if they aren’t using anabolics along with it- they’re not utilizing the enzyme that would regulate some of T3’s ability to stimulate protein synthesis, while they are simultaneously signaling the body to produce an inhibitory enzyme (D3). And remember, for decades bodybuilders who were dieting for a contest have been convinced that you lose less muscle with T4 use, but that it’s less effective for losing fat when compared with T3? Well, as we’ve seen, without something (GH in this case) to aid in the conversion process, it would clearly be less effective! Since the deiodinase enzyme is also located in the liver, and we see decreased hepatic nitrogen clearance with GH + T3, it would seem that the D3 enzyme is exerting it’s inhibitory effects, but in the absence of the effects of the first two deiodinase enzymes, it remains unchecked and therefore not only limits the GH’s nitrogen retention capability.

In other words, if we have enough to GH in our body aid in supraphysiological conversion of T4 into T3, but we already have the too much (exogenous) T3, the GH is not going to be converting any excess T4 into T3 after a certain point- which would be a limiting factor in GH’s anabolic effects, when coupled with the act that we’ve allowed the D3 enzyme to inhibit the T3/GH synergy that is necessary.

As further evidence, when we look at certain types of cellular growth (the cartilage cell in this case) we see that GH induced rises in IGF-I stimulates proliferation, whereas T3 is responsible for hypertrophic differentiation. So it would seem that in some tissues, IGF-1 stimulates the synthesis of new cells, while T3 makes them larger. In this particular case, The fact that T4 and (D1) deiodinase is am active component in this system is noted by the authors. They clearly state (paraphrasing) that: "T4 is is converted to T3 by deiodinase (5'-DI type 1) in peripheral tissues…[furthermore]GH stimulates conversion of T4 to T3 , suggesting that some effects of GH may involve this pathway." The thing I want you to notice is that the authors of this paper state that the that the conversion PATHWAY is probably involved, and not the simple presence of T3. (15 )

Also, that same study notes that T3 has the ability to stimulates IGF-I and expression in tissues that whereas GH has no such effect (ibid).

So what are we doing when we add T3 to GH? We’re effectively shutting down the conversion pathway that is responsible for some of GH’s effects! And what would we be doing if we added in T4 instead of T3? You got it- we’d be enhancing the pathway by allowing the GH we’re using to have more T4 to convert to T3, thus giving us more of an effect from the GH we’re taking. Adding T4 into our GH cycles will actually allow more of the GH to be used effectively!

Remember, the thing that catalyzes the conversion process is the deiodinase enzyme. This is also why using low amounts of T3 would seem (again, anecdotally in bodybuilders) to be able to slightly increase protein synthesis and have an anabolic effect – they aren’t using enough to tell the body to stop or slow down production of the deiodinase enzyme, and hence .Although this analogy isn’t perfect, think of GH as a supercharger you have attached to your car…if you don’t provide enough fuel for it to burn at it’s increased output level, you aren’t going to derive the full effects. Thyroid status also may influence IGF-I expression in tissues other than the liver.So what we have here is a problem. When we take GH, it lowers T3 levels…but we need T3 to keep our GH receptor levels optimally upregulated. In addition, it’s suspected that many of GH’s anabolic effects are engendered as a result of production of IGF-1, so keeping our IGF receptors upregulated by maintaining adequate levels of T3 seems prudent. But as we’ve just seen, supplementing T3 with our GH will abolish Growth Hormone’s functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, possibly through the effect of reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I (12.)

So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH.

And that’s where myself and Dr. Daemon ended up, after a week of e-mails, researching studies, and gathering clues.

If you’ve been using GH without T4, you’ve been wasting half your money – and if you’ve been using it with T3, you’ve been wasting your time. Start using T4 with your GH, and you’ll finally be getting the full results from your investment.

References:

Growth Factors. 1990;2(2-3):99-109.Interaction of TSH, insulin and insulin-like growth factors in regulating thyroid growth and function. Eggo MC, Bachrach LK, Burrow GN.

F, Rumpler M, Klaushofer K 1994 Thyroid hormones increase insulin-like growth factor mRNA levels in the clonal osteoblastic cell line MC3T3- E1. FEBS Lett 345: 67–70

Relationship of the rate of transcription to the level of nuclear thyroid hormone-receptor complexes.J Biol Chem. 1984 May 25;259(10):6284-91. Yaffe BM, Samuels HH.

Thyroid morphology and function in adults with untreated isolated growth hormone deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Mar;91(3):860-4. Epub 2006 Jan 4.

Eur J Endocrinol.1995 Dec;133(6):646-53.Influence of thyroid hormones on the regulation of growth hormone secretion. Giustina A, Wehrenberg WB.

Binoux M, Faivre-Bauman A, Lassarre C, Tixier-Vidal A 1985 Triiodothyronine stimulates the production of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) by fetal hypothalamus cells cultured in serum free medium. Dev Brain Res 21:319–323


Harakawa S, Yamashita S, Tobinaga T, Matsuo K, Hirayu H, Izumi M, Nagataki S, Melmed S. In vivo regulation of hepatic insulin-like growth factor-1 messenger ribonucleic acids with thyroid hormone. Endocrinol Jpn 37(2):205-11, 1990

Hochberg Z, Bick T, Harel Z Alterations of human growth hormone binding by rat liver membranes during hypo- and hyperthyroidism. Endocrinology 126(1):325-9, 1990

Matsuo K, Yamashita S, Niwa M, Kurihara M, Harakawa S, Izumi M, Nagataki S, Melmed S Thyroid hormone regulates rat pituitary insulin-like growth factor-I receptors. Endocrinology 126(1):550-4, 1990

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 11 5221-5226, 2003. High Dose Growth Hormone Exerts an Anabolic Effect at Rest and during Exercise in Endurance-Trained Athletes M. L. Healy, J. Gibney, D. L. Russell-Jones, C. Pentecost, P. Croos, P. H. Sönksen and A. M. Umpleby

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9. Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO

Huang, SA. Physiology and pathophysiology of type 3 deiodinase in humans. Thyroid. 2005 Aug;15(8):875-81. Review.

Hernandez. A. Structure and function of the type 3 deiodinase gene.Thyroid. 2005 Aug;15(8):865-74. Review.

F, Rumpler M, Klaushofer K 1994 Thyroid hormones increase insulin-like growth factor mRNA levels in the clonal osteoblastic cell line MC3T3- E1. FEBS Lett 345: 67–70

[Matt]

Here they are.....



~Haz~

Good job Haz, you really are cutting up nice whilst maintaining size.....

[babyface770]

Well this is my second day of hitting 5IU , for some reason I feel I'm doing something wrong and its depressing me

[Xtralarg]

Well this is my second day of hitting 5IU , for some reason I feel I'm doing something wrong and its depressing me

Why do you feel like that?

[babyface770]

I really don't know

I hit before I slept and then another hit at 5am , I don't know I feel weird maybe because I feel no difference , I know it takes months to see the effects

[Xtralarg]

Maybe you are expecting too much too soon?

It definitely wont be the fault of the gh, if anything it should elivate your mood.

Stay focussed and patient, good things will happen in time.

[BJJ]

Ok this is what heppened to me in the last two days.

Day 1:
took 100 mcg of T4 around 11 pm on an empty stomach and went to sleep 45' after that.
Result: I was awake all the night long, I fell asleep around 7 am!!!

Day 2:
took 100 mcg of T4 around 5:30 am together with my hgh injection of 5 iu.
Result: I could not fall asleep again and was awake till I stood up!!!

So, do I better splitting the dose in half taking it before bed and early in the morning (50/50)?
Or, do I better taking 100 mcg sometime during the day?

Thank you.

[BJJ]

Way to go Haz...

[Xtralarg]

Ok this is what heppened to me in the last two days.

Day 1:
took 100 mcg of T4 around 11 pm on an empty stomach and went to sleep 45' after that.
Result: I was awake all the night long, I fell asleep around 7 am!!!

Day 2:
took 100 mcg of T4 around 5:30 am together with my hgh injection of 5 iu.
Result: I could not fall asleep again and was awake till I stood up!!!

So, do I better splitting the dose in half taking it before bed and early in the morning (50/50)?
Or, do I better taking 100 mcg sometime during the day?

Thank you.

Sorry to hear that you cant sleep with the t4 inside you!

I have only suffered like that on high doses.

I think I would try to have it during the day on empty stomach i.e between meals, I dont see any good reason to slpit it as its half life is around 7 days.

[Xtralarg]

Yes excellent work Haz, you look really tight.

[BJJ]

Sorry to hear that you cant sleep with the t4 inside you!

I have only suffered like that on high doses.

I think I would try to have it during the day on empty stomach i.e between meals, I dont see any good reason to slpit it as its half life is around 7 days.

I thought about splitting because when using only 50 mcg I could sleep...

I think anyway your suggestion is the most appropriate.
I will have to find a day time and stick with it.

[P3rf3ctionist]

Hey people, an immensely informative thread, great job.

I've been monitoring this thread since its inception but only now have I decided to take the plunge and contribute my experience.

A bit about me:
Age: 24
Height: 6'2
Weight: 220lbs
Training Experience: 3.8 years
hGH: GTROPIN 800ius

My experience with hGH commenced approximately six weeks ago, started at the low 2iu dose and increased gradually to my desired maintenance dose of 4ius. I usually take it in morning around 7am and immediately go back to sleep for a couple of hours before waking up later in the morning. I'm doing a 3 on 1 off 2 on 1 off schedule of injecting, so far so good, went into the cycle with the aim of gradually losing BF% whilst making diet my primary tool against fat loss and hGH secondary combined with my resistance training. In terms of side effects, I've experienced all the text book symptoms of joint and hand pain at low doses.

RESULTS:
So far my results have exceeded expectation, over the past six weeks, with the use of hGH and a strict diet my BF% has decreased by 5% whilst my strength has relatively stayed the same. I've not done much in terms of treadmill cardiovascular exercise, instead i've incorporated two sessions of intense circuit training a week which I've made to mimmic HIIT.

FUTURE GOALS:
Aim is to maintain the 4iu dose and continue dieting down all the way till the end of August where I intend to commence an AAS cycle. Will use hGH and AAS together and increases my hGH dose from 4ius to 6ius throughout the AAS cycle. It will be a 10 week cycle so intend to use 300ius. More on this closer to the time.

My questions/concerns so far
I read the Anthony Roberts article on use of T4 with hGH when I first started my hGH, but wasn't entirely convinced about his credentials as an authority on such a topic. So I want to hear individuals personal experience they've had on this issue. Also I intend to use T4 in conjunction with my AAS + hGH cycle in September so would using it now with out any AAS use at the moment be a good move? Wouldn't it result in too much suppression if I started using T4 now and continued its use into my AAS cycle which would mean I would be on T4 for five months? Would muscle loss be greater at the moment if I started using T4s?

Thanks for your help and will keep this thread updated.

[BJJ]

Hey people, an immensely informative thread, great job.

I've been monitoring this thread since its inception but only now have I decided to take the plunge and contribute my experience.

A bit about me:
Age: 24
Height: 6'2
Weight: 220lbs
Training Experience: 3.8 years
hGH: GTROPIN 800ius

My experience with hGH commenced approximately six weeks ago, started at the low 2iu dose and increased gradually to my desired maintenance dose of 4ius. I usually take it in morning around 7am and immediately go back to sleep for a couple of hours before waking up later in the morning. I'm doing a 3 on 1 off 2 on 1 off schedule of injecting, so far so good, went into the cycle with the aim of gradually losing BF% whilst making diet my primary tool against fat loss and hGH secondary combined with my resistance training. In terms of side effects, I've experienced all the text book symptoms of joint and hand pain at low doses.

RESULTS:
So far my results have exceeded expectation, over the past six weeks, with the use of hGH and a strict diet my BF% has decreased by 5% whilst my strength has relatively stayed the same. I've not done much in terms of treadmill cardiovascular exercise, instead i've incorporated two sessions of intense circuit training a week which I've made to mimmic HIIT.

FUTURE GOALS:
Aim is to maintain the 4iu dose and continue dieting down all the way till the end of August where I intend to commence an AAS cycle. Will use hGH and AAS together and increases my hGH dose from 4ius to 6ius throughout the AAS cycle. It will be a 10 week cycle so intend to use 300ius. More on this closer to the time.

My questions/concerns so far
I read the Anthony Roberts article on use of T4 with hGH when I first started my hGH, but wasn't entirely convinced about his credentials as an authority on such a topic. So I want to hear individuals personal experience they've had on this issue. Also I intend to use T4 in conjunction with my AAS + hGH cycle in September so would using it now with out any AAS use at the moment be a good move? Wouldn't it result in too much suppression if I started using T4 now and continued its use into my AAS cycle which would mean I would be on T4 for five months? Would muscle loss be greater at the moment if I started using T4s?

Thanks for your help and will keep this thread updated.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Your username makes sense on you...

Regarding T4, I advise you to get a blood work done before start using it but I do recommend you to incorporate it as soon as possible.

I was on HGH for a month without T4.
Once I started to take 50 mcg ed, I noticed a remarkable improvement.

If it is too much 5 months on T4 I do not know, but I am sure XL is going to answer your question with his usual seriousness.

[babyface770]

Maybe you are expecting too much too soon?

It definitely wont be the fault of the gh, if anything it should elivate your mood.

Stay focussed and patient, good things will happen in time.

maybe thats it , i hope it all unfolds soon , iv been reading the thread and everyone seems to be taking 5IU at one shot why am i taking it twice ?


another thing can i post a picture of my t4 pills or is it against the rules and regulations ?

[Hazard]

Thats one hell of a cock on you Haz

thanks

I'm quite proud.....

~Haz~

[paddy155]

I notice that most user's of hgh use a typical dose of 8iu-10iu daily for 6 month's minimal for gaining muscle mass. I then began to research around other board's etc and found that some user's have had great success using a blast protocol with gh. I think the idea is that you basically blast for one week of every month. You take what you would typically take in a month's dosage in one week and the allow your body to rest before blasting again.
Would like to know your thoughts on this.

[BJJ]

I notice that most user's of hgh use a typical dose of 8iu-10iu daily for 6 month's minimal for gaining muscle mass. I then began to research around other board's etc and found that some user's have had great success using a blast protocol with gh. I think the idea is that you basically blast for one week of every month. You take what you would typically take in a month's dosage in one week and the allow your body to rest before blasting again.
Would like to know your thoughts on this.

Well, considering that the human's liver has a little capability to raise IGF-1 levels, I think that idea is deceptive.

[paddy155]

Copied from another board.

I have never bought into the effects of gh

not for lipotrophc effect, but for the growth effect. due to a post ive recently c+p about satellite cells, igf and the need for anabolics and androgens being of primary importance.

but..
i also dont agree with this 2ius, 4ius 8,ius before bed, eod, every training day,
i simply cant see how the body is going to fully utilize the powerful hormone (secondary only to insulin ) in such small doses.

con and i have spoken on when we increased out doseage, over small time frames, ie. 3 days a week not ed, we noticed alot more growth.

i likened this to that of puberty, when they bodys can grow both skeletal muscle mass , bone growth and in fact its WHOLE self by upto 5-7%. Now this is a huge "spurt" hence the name.
some children gaining 14lbs in musculaR weight, shedding that puppy fat AND GROWING UPTO 5".

Now wev all said "oh juniour will shed that puppy fat when he has a growth spurt!"
"oh hell fill out once hes had a growth spurt!"

Do you see? these children are shedding 10-30lbs, changing whole body shapes via just their pulses of gh.
now why in gods name dont bodybuilderd want this same result.

Iv healed a bicep tear in 4 weeks meant for 4 months thru supraphysiological spurts of gh.
had clients shed 5st and build i eastimate 14 lbs of lean tissue in 5 months.

trick is it was based on GH plasma levels of growing children where huge spurts of growth were noticed but only 4-5 per days per month

i will site some research at a later date as i know many on here love to smash down a principle without trying it but..

ive found that taking 25-40 ius for 5-7 days a month produces some very very NOTICEABLE results right from the start.
debunking this myth..gh needs to be stayed on for 6 months first. please tell me where on earth such a powerful hormone needs so long to exhibit fat burning properties die to lipotrophic action or the spilitting and harvesting of new satellite cells. , recovery? i find this ludicrous.
i notice recovery, fat loss in days.

ive run gh this way
month 1. week 1. 24ius days 1,2,3 40ius day 4,5. then nothing but aas and androgens till the next start of the month.
i also believe biohazards paul borresson found similar results but ive been noted on here saying the puberty example since 2001 at uni.

many wil scream.. WAY TOO HIGH.
but if uve got the guts to try it, you find your gains in skeletal mass, and lowering of bf massive.
this is how i beleive it best to run with insulin allowing the user to not hammer his body with exo compounds and risk blunting his own production.

blast cruise in any respect is better for the body as u then allow it to align the carious metabolic processes and other hormonal systems to accomodate the new tissue.

[BJJ]

^^^
How would you tolerate the sides?

[paddy155]

well,that is what I was thinking. The guy's who are using this protocol don't seem to get the side's as severe as other's so it may be an individual thing and I think they are somewhat more advanced in the use of gh.
I am a newbie to gh so I can only go by the feedback of others as I have no experience with it.
As this is my main forum for bodybuilding I also browse a few others and I browse a uk site now and again,as I am from there and the guy who put up the protocol began to get a mention on p,muscle and md,so it must have got people talking.
As far as I believe it is not a new protocol for gh but he has brought it back to light and has had great success from it and from the feedback of other's.
I guess it is somewhat a trial and error thing and obvisouly everyone is different. Just trying to get different idea's for when I emabark on my journey with gh.

[BJJ]

well,that is what I was thinking. The guy's who are using this protocol don't seem to get the side's as severe as other's so it may be an individual thing and I think they are somewhat more advanced in the use of gh.
I am a newbie to gh so I can only go by the feedback of others as I have no experience with it.
As this is my main forum for bodybuilding I also browse a few others and I browse a uk site now and again,as I am from there and the guy who put up the protocol began to get a mention on p,muscle and md,so it must have got people talking.
As far as I believe it is not a new protocol for gh but he has brought it back to light and has had great success from it and from the feedback of other's.
I guess it is somewhat a trial and error thing and obvisouly everyone is different. Just trying to get different idea's for when I emabark on my journey with gh.

I appreciate your efforts.
I would wait for those experienced to chime in.
I am also very interested in their opinions.

[bjpennnn]

I thought about splitting because when using only 50 mcg I could sleep...

I think anyway your suggestion is the most appropriate.
I will have to find a day time and stick with it.

I took my t4 at night b4 i went to bed. no sleep problems or anything

[babyface770]

I thought about splitting because when using only 50 mcg I could sleep...

I think anyway your suggestion is the most appropriate.
I will have to find a day time and stick with it.

bro. i thought of something today , i started taking animal pump the same time around i started using GH , could my water bloat be from the Ceratine that is in the animal pump pills or it wont be that severe ?


cause my water bloat is like woah !! ... when i first started to use GH my belly and chest were really bloated then my ankle was bloated but now everything is almost gone except for my face that looks like a watermelon my cheeks are gonna explode but again could it be ceratine ?

[marcus300]

thanks

I'm quite proud.....

~Haz~

Joking apart, you look really good and your making huge progress fast! well done

[Hazard]

Joking apart, you look really good and your making huge progress fast! well done

Thanks big guy!

I'm still 240..... Think i've added a bit of muscle before I started cutting. I can't wait till I get sub 10%..... I'm trying but cardio sucks big bollocks.....

~Haz~

[BJJ]

bro. i thought of something today , i started taking animal pump the same time around i started using GH , could my water bloat be from the Ceratine that is in the animal pump pills or it wont be that severe ?


cause my water bloat is like woah !! ... when i first started to use GH my belly and chest were really bloated then my ankle was bloated but now everything is almost gone except for my face that looks like a watermelon my cheeks are gonna explode but again could it be ceratine ?

I do not think so since you get less than 2.5 g of creatine with animal pump.

The point to me is not if the bloat comes from creatine or not but the fact you are using creatine.
Why? you are taking somatropin and it is more than enough unless you want to stack it with aas.
What do you need creatine for?

[BJJ]

Thanks big guy!

I'm still 240..... Think i've added a bit of muscle before I started cutting. I can't wait till I get sub 10%..... I'm trying but cardio sucks big bollocks.....

~Haz~

Hazard, how tall are you?

[babyface770]

I do not think so since you get less than 2.5 g of creatine with animal pump.

The point to me is not if the bloat comes from creatine or not but the fact you are using creatine.
Why? you are taking somatropin and it is more than enough unless you want to stack it with aas.
What do you need creatine for?

its not that im just taking creatine , im on animal pump that contains a lot of other stuff including ceratine , but anyways if you suggest i drop it then so be it


yeah stacking it with test prop (week 6) EOD

[Hazard]

Hazard, how tall are you?

6'1

~Haz~

[jason8455]

Want to start off with saying thank you XL for this amazing thread. So many ideas for hgh protocols and even insulin !

I recently posted a question on my HGH dosing and had a reply that was very helpfull and have started doing that but wanted to mention it again as so many people are involved with this discusion, maybe there are some mroe ideas!

I recently bumped up to 5iu's 5/2 from 4iu's 5/2 but my question was if I wanted to get in a littler more GH withought it running out too fast should I bump up the 5iu's or maybe 6/1? The answer prior was keep it at 5iu but add 1 more day.

Also had a timing question.. I see a lot of people saying to keep you injection an hour away from food so your sugar levels don't rise and what not but I was reading where NotSmall does 10iu's GH and 10iu's Slin PW.

I often cycle Slin and wanted to give this a go but was curious why the idea of keeping GH away from food does not matter for this time?

Hope that makes since... Often get too excited with this stuff and things run on!

[BJJ]

its not that im just taking creatine , im on animal pump that contains a lot of other stuff including ceratine , but anyways if you suggest i drop it then so be it


yeah stacking it with test prop (week 6) EOD

HGH + Test Prop + Whole Food (the right one) + BCAA + Glutamine + Water (enough but not too much).
That is all you need, IMO.

[P3rf3ctionist]

6'1

~Haz~

Hey Haz, at the beginning of this page you mentioned you were combining your hGH use with T3, if you don't mind me asking, are you using any AAS?

[P3rf3ctionist]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Your username makes sense on you...

Regarding T4, I advise you to get a blood work done before start using it but I do recommend you to incorporate it as soon as possible.

I was on HGH for a month without T4.
Once I started to take 50 mcg ed, I noticed a remarkable improvement.

If it is too much 5 months on T4 I do not know, but I am sure XL is going to answer your question with his usual seriousness.

Hey BJJ, I'm intending to go in to see my doc tomorrow and will ask my for my thyroid hormone levels checked, my only two major conearns with incorportating T4 at this stage would be:
1) Muscle loss
2) I'm seeing great results so far without the T4, so as the saying goes why fix something that isn't broken

However, if I can accelerate the process by using T4 I'd love that too.

...and thanks for the welcome.

[babyface770]

HGH + Test Prop + Whole Food (the right one) + BCAA + Glutamine + Water (enough but not too much).
That is all you need, IMO.

Well I take 3 pills of amino before practice and r after and my protien contains 10 grams of BCAA's

Is that enough ?

[BJJ]

Hey BJJ, I'm intending to go in to see my doc tomorrow and will ask my for my thyroid hormone levels checked, my only two major conearns with incorportating T4 at this stage would be:
1) Muscle loss
2) I'm seeing great results so far without the T4, so as the saying goes why fix something that isn't broken

However, if I can accelerate the process by using T4 I'd love that too.

...and thanks for the welcome.

Your concern about LBM loss can be only theorized, in reality I am keeping all of my muscles. If you had taken T3, then the speech would be different.

The fact you obtained great results so far does not mean you cannot improve them.