Free Diet advice by Narkissos & Novastepp: Intro to Performance Nutrition 101

[Beefkake31]

At the core of the diet?

45% of total calories.

This shifts to 35% during times of carb cycling.

...but 45% at core.

Sounds good, also I think I'm fairly carb sensitive do you think I should take this into a account?

You calculated your maintenance as 3,300?

I'm assuming you used the HB formula... as opposed to the KM formula... correct?

i.e. your calculations are based on total weight and activity as opposed to lean weight. Yes?

Clarify this before I comment on your kcals further... Thanks.

Yes I calculated it using the HB formula, with moderate activity. My LBM is 185 pounds, have 30 pounds of fat btw.

1. Why so much fat?
2. Why these ratios?

1. I didn't think 70 grams of fat if it was mostly EFA's was too much? I mean I can go to 20-30 but wouldn't that be bare minimum?

2. I like to keep the protein as half my intake to preserve and build muscle as much as possible and keep my metabolism at a decent rate. and 25/25 on the carb/fat just so I didn't go to high on one or the other.

We'll address this later in the thread.

I'll state from the beginning however that I don't believe in 'sub-maintenance' type diets.

Food intake is directly co-related to performance.

Ergo, sub-maintenance diets negatively effect performance.

Drops in performance equate to drops in lean tissue.

An over-simplification on my part... but a reality.

Food intake is the last factor i manipulate when i'm cutting.

-CNS

Ya when you have time I would definitely like to hear more about this in detail and also your views on size and sub maintenance.


I was even thinking of sticking to maintenance and just adding cardio but that is going to take longer even though I will probably keep more muscle. This one is directly for summer and not long term. But I am thinking of doing the junior nationals in Pasadena for 09'.

[Narkissos]

age: 22
6'1 185
bf: around 14 probably

monday- back/biceps
tuesday- cardio (run or bike)
wednesday- shoulders/legs
thursday- cardio or off
friday- chest/triceps
saturday- cardio (hockey)
sunday- off -- cheat meals day



gym days mon.wednesday.friday i go for about an hour/////// cardio tues.thurs. is 30-40 minutes outdoor biking//// hockey is 2 hours but playing for 10-15 intense minutes then 5 or so minutes of rest

Ok... 22 years, 185 lbs, <>16% (will overestimate... as most underestimate), relatively active.

I'd peg you at 2220-2400kcals... 3000kcals on the re-feed.

now this is where im at for a cutting diet.

__________________________________________________ CAL.---FAT---SAT FAT---CARBS---PROTIEN
Meal 1;
1 cup plain oats w/ sugar free syrup(not much)_____________300----6g------0g----------54g---------10g
4 egg whites 1 egg scrambled cooked with O.O. spray________135-----4.5g----1.5g-------1g----------20g
1/4 cup shredded mozz. cheese___________________________80------6g------3.5g-------1g-----------8g
3 slices canadian bacon__________________________________60------1.5g----.5g--------1g-----------11g
________________________________________________ total: 575-----17.5g----5.5g-----56g-------49g

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*breathes*aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much fat at one sitting.

What with that many carbs etc.?

Nah... bad.. bad bad bad.

Adding fat for sateity is one thing.

You're mixing two schools of thought on this one however.


[QUOTE=alphadog;3942306]
Hour later Go to gym

Meal 2 after workout;
45g whey pro-amino w/ water____________________________196-----1g-------0g---------3g----------45g
8 oz. chicken breast grilled_______________________________220-----0g-------0g--------0g----------50g
_________________________________________________t otal:416-----1g------0g---------3g----------95g


Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*breathes *aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa too much protein in one sitting.

Not carbs?

Error.

Meal 3;
8oz. chicken breast grilled_______________________________220------1g-------0g--------0g----------50g
baby romaine salad w/ o.o. and balsamic vin________________160------14g------2g--------9g----------2g
________________________________________________to tal: 380------15g-----2g--------9g-----------52g

Decent.

Though.. I don't think 8 oz of chicken breast contains 15gr fat.

How is it being prepared?

Meal 4;
tuna(albacore)____________________________________ _____175-------2.5g------0g-------0g----------45g
w/ tbsp. light mayo______________________________________40-------4.5g------.5g-------0g---------0g
__________________________________________________ total: 215------7g-------.5g-------0g---------45g

Decent

Meal 5;
45g whey pro-amino w/ water_____________________________196-------1g--------0g-------3g---------45g
peanut butter and celery_________________________________215-------16g-------3g--------7g---------7g
_________________________________________________t otal: 411-------17g-------3g-------10g--------52g
Meal 6;
tuna(albacore)____________________________________ _____175-------2.5g------0g-------0g----------45g
w/ tbsp. light mayo______________________________________40-------4.5g------.5g-------0g---------0g
__________________________________________________ total: 215------7g-------.5g-------0g---------45g

Decent

[QUOTE=alphadog;3942306]UPDATED TOTAL:_______CALORIES_______TOTAL FAT_______SAT FAT______CARBS_______PROTIEN 580.5 1352
--------------------------2212g-------------64.5g--------------11.5g-----------78g-----------338g

Firstly Your totals don't add up.

64.5gr fat= 580.5 kcals
78gr carb= 312 kcals
338 gr pro = 1352 kcals

Total kcals= 2244.5

Not 2212 kcals

Secondly... Your LBM, by your estimate, is 160 lbs. (re: 14% bf)

Ergo, your protein intake is WAY too high.

Your fat intake is on the high side as well. (<>25% of total kcals)

High.. but acceptable.

Your protien though.. I'd lower.

You're an athlete.. You play hockey... You need carbs mate.

Regardless of whether you're cutting or bulking.

Carbs.

Good clean carbs.

So here's what I'd do.

Leave your fat intake as it is. (though my preference would be to drop it to 20% of your kcal totals)

Bump your carb intake to at least 150 gr... & Lower your protein intake accordingly (to 266 gr)...

250 + gr of protein is still 'more than you need'...but it'll do for your purposes.

Additionally, I'd add another meal.. so you can reduce your portion sizes..and spread your macronutrients more evenly over the day... As opposed to lumping all that fat in one sitting etc.

ive read and believe milk is no good cuz of processed sugar so no milk.

What processed sugars?

The reason why I advise against milk is because of the estrogen content.

no carrots and corn because of starch. i basically am staying away from carbs and sugar. carbs only when i need them in the morning and after workout. multivitamin everyday.

See above.

Avoid sugar... but not complex carbs.

please let me know where or if im f*cking up in any areas. i eat till im satisfied i dont stuff myself. i cheat on sunday sometimes ill eat jsut 3 meals all considered cheating to me meals with bread. i can cut this out entirely if it will get me to where i want i just need some more direction. im looking to get my body to, i hate to sound cliche, but brad pitt in fight club level.

thanks

What do you mean you just eat 3 meals on your cheat day?

-CNS

[Narkissos]

An announcement to whom ever it may concern.

Nova and myself do NOT believe in high-fat, low-carb, dieting.

If that is your dieting style of preference... this is not the thread for you.

Thanks.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Hello Nark,
Thanks for taking the time to field these questions.
1. Do fruits and vegetables have any place in a cutting diet? If so, which types and at what portions?

Fruits and vegetables.. Yes.

For performance it is important to utilize nutritionally dense foods.

Fruits and vegetables aide in food utilization, elimination and regularity, as well as recovery from exercise.

The trick is to know what to ingest..and when.

To the guys who make a habit of staying lean year-round.. this is a non-issue. (another reason why staying lean is healthier.. as it allows you to aptly utilize a full-spectrum nutritional approach)

To other guys who bulk and cut, timing is of ultimate importance... especially when deadlines factor in (like for contests, & photoshoots etc.)

Vegetables can fit in to generally any type of nutritional approach (even keto dieting... though we won't discuss that on this thread, as i'm opposed to it). I'd go with 1-2 servings per meal...depending on the type of dieting you subscribe to.

Remember to subtract their carb-count from your allotment... as they too contribute carbs.

I know guys who cut on broccoli and chicken only and remain 'full' muscularly... simply because they consume a significant enough amount of broccoli that glycogen remains relatively topped up.

I'm not pulling this out of my ass... that's hard fact.

Furthermore.. soluble fiber adds to the kcal count as well. So always count the kcals from your veggies.. and make the necessary deductions from your carb count to validate their inclusion.

w/ regard to fruits... avoid the starchier ones..

These tend to be of lower nutritional density anyway.

Go for berries and citrus fruits.

Servings?

That depends on you... I consume fruits infrequently while cutting myself.

I generally restrict to once per week on my re-feed day.

On this day.. I load up.

Mostly citrus fruits, as well as apples, grapes, and pears... each providing a unique and dense phytonutrient array.

As well as satisfying any sweet tooth cravings which might manifest...

2. I’m currently injured and cannot weight train but I also have a high level of body fat I’m trying to reduce… Is it safe to continue my cutting diet without any type of training? (no juice)

^^Yes.

Actually, I'd suggest that you were hypocaloric during this time.. as opposed to eating at maintenance.

You'll flatten out.. but you won't lose significant muscle tissue.

I suggest... Consume protein @ 1-1.5 gr per lb LBM.

Drop carbs low... Consuming carbs only from a range of vegetables.

Supplement with fish oil and lecithin @ 3-6gr per meal (depending on your kcal requirements)

How significantly are you injured?

Can you do cardio?

This would support your goals rather effectively.

-CNS

[novastepp]

great stuff Nark. so very informative as usual.

[damiongage]

great thread nark....

question....Do you recomend this same type of dieting for most people?...or is there a difference in say a 21 yr old athlete, a 30 yr old office worker want to get into shape, 40 yr dad, women, ect....I know there will be changes for everyone....I just mean major changes. I know you train/ have trained some obese people as well....is this the type of diet you recomed for them as well? If so how does it compare to say the Atkins or South Beach diet those type of people seem to be so stuck on?

nova please chime in as well.....

[Narkissos]

great stuff Nark. so very informative as usual.

ah... don't let me steal the show.

This one is yours

Free Diet advice by Narkissos & Novastepp: Intro to Performance Nutrition 101

[Prada]

The trick is to know what to ingest..and when.


To other guys who bulk and cut, timing is of ultimate importance... especially when deadlines factor in (like for contests, & photoshoots etc.)

Agreed!

I suggest... Consume protein @ 1-1.5 gr per lb LBM.

Yup I think the mantra of 2.0g/lbs doesnt have much foundation. Pretty much any study I've read never goes saying that one will yield additional benefit from over 1.5lbs of LEAN weight. That is around how much I take, divided approximatively equally amongst 6 meals and PWO shake


-CNS

[Narkissos]

great thread nark....

Thanks for following mate.

question....Do you recomend this same type of dieting for most people?...or is there a difference in say a 21 yr old athlete, a 30 yr old office worker want to get into shape, 40 yr dad, women, ect....I know there will be changes for everyone....I just mean major changes. I know you train/ have trained some obese people as well....is this the type of diet you recomed for them as well?

I do train obese people... That is correct.

I must clarify however... While i do, ultimately, recommend a similar type of dieting for all individuals...Not everyone starts at the same place physically.

We're discussing the end-phase of my approach to dieting in this thread.

This thread assumes that the target individual is healthy, male (though not a specific requirement ), and active.

'Healthy' being with specific reference to glucose tolerance and body composition (among other factors).

Like i said... this is the end-phase.. i.e. the pre-requisite for utilizing this dieting style being discussed.

When i work with individuals who do not meet the base requirements... I get them there.

Generally this requires removing starchy carbs... bumping fibrous carbs... adding high-intensity cardio and weight-training.

..Adding b-complex vitamins and a Glucose-disposal agent.

When glucose sensitivity is established...carbs are re-introduced.

But... I introduce them one at a time to establish/dismiss food allergies etc.

Also... I discriminate against some sources, preferentially suggesting certain types.

Subscribing to this type of lifestyle change requires maintaining high insulin sensitivity.

Which is ideal for bodybuilding purposes, as high insulin sensitivity means more muscle w/ less fat gain.

If so how does it compare to say the Atkins or South Beach diet those type of people seem to be so stuck on?

nova please chime in as well.....

It's more optimal from the performance perspective. It's healthier. It's more flexible...and it's more easily maintained.

I subscribe to the lifestyle.

I do say lifestyle.. because it so much more than a diet.

-CNS

[Braunstein]

I wasn't sure if you said I should include the green veg carbs or not in my totals?

Thanks for the reply Nark.

I have a torn meniscus/strained ACL. I could probably do some upper body workouts. My plan is as follows…

I’m 6’0, 185, estimated 25%bf. I was at one point 270 and went on an extreme caloric deficient and lost a lot of size. Knowing what I know now, I can see that was a really bad idea….But all I can do is move forward.

Low carb days 1-13, followed by a reefed on day 14 (high carb) then back to Low carb days with a reefed every 7 days. Here’s what I’ve came up with.



Low carb day:
CAL FAT PRO CARB
06:30AM Meal 1:
½ cup egg whites 61 0 13 1
1 whole egg 75 5 6 1
1 scoop whey 104 0 20 6
½ cup dry oats 145 2 6 25

Totals 385 7 45 33


09:00AM Meal 2:
6 oz turkey burger 180 2 42 0
1 tbsp. flax oil 120 14 0 0
2 cups broccoli

Totals 300 16 42 0

12:00PM Meal 3:
6 oz beef burger 180 2 42 0
1 tbsp. flax oil 120 14 0 0
2 cups g. beans

Totals 300 16 42 0

02:30PM Meal 4:
6 oz chicken 180 2 42 0
1 tbsp. flax oil 120 14 0 0
2 cups broccoli

Totals 300 16 42 0

05:30PM Meal 5:
6 oz tuna 180 1 43 0
2 tbsp mayo 120 14 0 0
2 cups spinach

Totals 300 16 43 0

08:00PM Meal 6:
6 oz turkey burger 180 2 42 0
1 tbsp. flax oil 120 14 0 0
2 cups broccoli

Totals 300 16 42 0
Daily totals: 1885 87 255 25





And for the refeed day I would follow this:
• Daily totals: 2400 calories, Carb: 350g, Protein: 185g
• Per meal totals: 400 calories, 30g protein, 58g carb (fruits okay)



Thanks.

[novastepp]

how does it compare to say the Atkins or South Beach diet those type of people seem to be so stuck on?

nova please chime in as well.....

this really is the heart of the thread. IMO the atkins and south beach type diets are for those who need to lose a lot of weight and aren't very active at all, which sadly, is the entire US population I see. Now the dietary approach Nark and I support caters largely to those who are active. Whether it be lifting routinely, cardio, or other athletics, the dietary approach we find that works is the one we represent here.

[novastepp]

Sounds good, also I think I'm fairly carb sensitive do you think I should take this into a account?

personally it depends on what carbs you are sensitive to. tubers, starchy carbs, or others. Seeing as this thread consists of a lower fat diet, I don't think you should have to worry about your carb sensitivity. The reason is the concept of cycling. You will have a refeed day and maintenance day and a lower carb day.

Yes I calculated it using the HB formula, with moderate activity. My LBM is 185 pounds, have 30 pounds of fat btw.


you should reevaluate your caloric needs based on your LBM and not your total body mass. You want to consistently feed the tissue that keeps your metabolism active. And that shouldn't include the fat tissue.

1. I didn't think 70 grams of fat if it was mostly EFA's was too much? I mean I can go to 20-30 but wouldn't that be bare minimum?

again, some follow that approach, we do not. And yes, don't worry about lowering your fats. If you can stick to say, broccoli, and maybe some potatoes, those carb sources would be excellent choices, and when they encompass the majority of your daily calorie needs they keep glycogen stores up.

2. I like to keep the protein as half my intake to preserve and build muscle as much as possible and keep my metabolism at a decent rate. and 25/25 on the carb/fat just so I didn't go to high on one or the other.


Basically the idea is to use a ratio of 50/50 carbs/protein. Fat can be used to keep you full, but shouldn't be supplemented into meals in high amounts.



Ya when you have time I would definitely like to hear more about this in detail and also your views on size and sub maintenance.

i know you want Nark's opinion, but myself I don't see a need to eat at a sub maintenance level if you base your caloric needs off of your LBM. You will probably hear that a lot in this thread if you follow it, but it really shows great results both on paper and in the real world applications. The ability to stay full, and keep any and all strength and size gains is very attainable following this kind of approach, you just need to find the correct carbs and varying protein choices.

I was even thinking of sticking to maintenance and just adding cardio but that is going to take longer even though I will probably keep more muscle. This one is directly for summer and not long term. But I am thinking of doing the junior nationals in Pasadena for 09'.

staying at a maintenance level for your LBM and adding cardio to a consistent weight training program is exactly what this kind of approach is based around, the performance athlete.

[damiongage]

A big bump for this thread.

This has to be one of the best threads I have read in a while. Diet is 90% of this game, and it is refreshing to see a thread based on theory, and not on ones individual diet.

[novastepp]

i found this abstract quote hits home with the purpose of this thread.

The majority of a performance athlete’s training and overall cardiovascular function is dependent upon carbohydrate-derived energy provision. Thus, to support this training intensity, a high carbohydrate intake should be targeted. The required energy expenditure throughout each training phase varies significantly, and thus the total energy intake should also vary accordingly to better maintain an ideal body composition. Optimizing acute recovery is highly dependent upon the immediate consumption of carbohydrate to maximize glycogen re-synthesis rates. To optimize longer-term recovery, protein in conjunction with carbohydrate should be consumed.

very brief, yet again shows that for maximum performance, effort, and recovery, a diet consisting mainly of pro/carb should be utilized.

Stellingwerff, T., Boit, M. K., Res,. (Dec2007) Nutritional strategies to optimize training and recovery in performance and middle-distance athletes. Journal of Sports Sciences, Supplement 1, Vol. 25, p17-28, 12p

[Narkissos]

i found this abstract quote hits home with the purpose of this thread.

The majority of a performance athlete’s training and overall cardiovascular function is dependent upon carbohydrate-derived energy provision. Thus, to support this training intensity, a high carbohydrate intake should be targeted. The required energy expenditure throughout each training phase varies significantly, and thus the total energy intake should also vary accordingly to better maintain an ideal body composition. Optimizing acute recovery is highly dependent upon the immediate consumption of carbohydrate to maximize glycogen re-synthesis rates. To optimize longer-term recovery, protein in conjunction with carbohydrate should be consumed.

very brief, yet again shows that for maximum performance, effort, and recovery, a diet consisting mainly of pro/carb should be utilized.

Stellingwerff, T., Boit, M. K., Res,. (Dec2007) Nutritional strategies to optimize training and recovery in performance and middle-distance athletes. Journal of Sports Sciences, Supplement 1, Vol. 25, p17-28, 12p

^^Good find.

Especially pertinent because it's directly applicable to our purposes.

The athletes mentioned here are performance and middle-distance athletes... as opposed to long-distance runners.

Directly applicable.

-CNS

[MaGiCJNG]

Hello AR... Narkissos here.

I figure that most of you know me.

Some...from my years here.

Some...as my clients.

Others, having followed my articles 'elsewhere'.

Those of you that have been around for a while know that I specialize in training and nutrition... with specific emphasis on contest prep.

Those of you who've worked with me know that my approach to dieting differs significantly to the norm on the boards.

This thread serves to supply free dieting advice based on what I have tested and applied many times over on clients.

I do not subscribe to the pro/fat school of dieting... Ergo, I will be representing a higher-carb approach.

Novastepp will be assisting in this regard...as his views on dieting are similar to my own...

...Similar... but dissimilar as well.

On this thread you'll get no-nonsense advice...from two points of view.

A warning beforehand... Leave your ego at the door

Nark and Nova are primed to rock this joint!!!

-CNS

Good shit dude thanks. I'm sure many others like myself are much appreciative of this advice. I have already consulted with Nova and he gives nothing but excellent advice, and what i have read from your posts, well, the same.

I appreciate this and I will be looking forward to the constant advice given out to others!!!

[MaGiCJNG]

Hey Nark and Nova

I have adjusted my diet to include complex carbs in every meal (as you know Nova, you helped me already in this regard), stating i will get my trivial amount of fats from the meats i eat.

I think i am going to carb cycle though, as it makes sense to me. But i saw you mention a refeed day. What does this mean?

Also, you say ergo a lot haha what is that?

Secondly, how do you feel in the Malto/Dextrose & Protein PWO shake? I like it in terms of taste haha, but i feel like i'm cheating every time i drink one of them. I know Nova uses complex carbs, but is it safe to say its good to consume these right after am intense workout? What about right after cardio?

I use 50 grams of whey, with 50 grams of malto and 30 grams of dextrose. Is this fine?

Last, but how long do you usually have your last meal before your workout? I ate yesterday 30 minutes before i hit up the gym, but i usually wait around 2 hours. Whats a good rule of thumb here?

Thanks guys.

[Narkissos]

Sounds good, also I think I'm fairly carb sensitive do you think I should take this into a account?

I don't believe in carb-sensitivity. I only believe in poor carb selection...and poor food combinations in general.

The problem with athletes I find is that they eat for indulgence, as opposed to performance.

Guys know which foods cause negative reactions in their bodies, yet they continue to ingest them because they've conditioned their minds to think that they can't structure a diet without it.

Often i see posts like these:

"I don't see a problem with whole grain bread.. It just causes a little bloat".

*DING DING DING*

Bloat, which isn't related to mineral content, IS A PROBLEM.

/end caps-mediated rant

Yes I calculated it using the HB formula, with moderate activity. My LBM is 185 pounds, have 30 pounds of fat btw.

I'm not going to re-calculate your BMR/TDEE using the KM formula.

What i would advise however is that when you get leaner, you take the time and do so.

It will make all the difference.

Heck.. I'd do it right now if I were you... even though the difference will be miniscule.

1. I didn't think 70 grams of fat if it was mostly EFA's was too much? I mean I can go to 20-30 but wouldn't that be bare minimum?

Adjust your overall fat allotment to be reflective of your kcal requirements.

Fat is fat in the overall scheme of things.

Ergo, if you are consuming too many calories (regardless of EFAs being the major contributor), you will get fat.

...or you will curtail your fat-loss.

an FYI: we don't deal with set gram amounts.. We deal with percentages.

20% of total kcals is a good place to start.

2. I like to keep the protein as half my intake to preserve and build muscle as much as possible and keep my metabolism at a decent rate. and 25/25 on the carb/fat just so I didn't go to high on one or the other.

That's middle of the road.

Decide what role you macronutrients play.

Protein: growth and repair**
Carbs: energy etc.**
Fat: recovery, hormone synthesis**

Take your protein too high.. and you supply an inefficient energy source... same with fats.

Ya when you have time I would definitely like to hear more about this in detail and also your views on size and sub maintenance.

What about the two?

I was even thinking of sticking to maintenance and just adding cardio but that is going to take longer even though I will probably keep more muscle.

Keeping more muscle is imperative.

This one is directly for summer and not long term. But I am thinking of doing the junior nationals in Pasadena for 09'.

Ah I see.

Well... my contest prep normally falls during summer.

By the middle of the prep i'm 'in shape'... And i don't cut calories particularly low. I consume .75-1 gr of protein per lb of LBM + 200 gr carbs or thereabouts...and no supplemented fats ('cept for lecithin and occasionally flax or fish oil.. and generally these are added only when lethargy sets in, which is infrequently).

So i would say, bumping caloric expenditure is the preferred approach.

Even if your goals are short-term.


-CNS


**NB: Yes I know these are gross over statements. But necessary given time constraints

[Narkissos]

Hey Nark and Nova

Hey buddy... Got your PM...

Thanks for re-posting.

I have adjusted my diet to include complex carbs in every meal (as you know Nova, you helped me already in this regard), stating i will get my trivial amount of fats from the meats i eat.

I think i am going to carb cycle though, as it makes sense to me. But i saw you mention a refeed day. What does this mean?

A Re-feed day is already incorporated in your carb-cycling protocol. It would be your high-carb day.

For those who are consuming lower kcals for an extended period of time (As opposed to cycling kcals/carbs up and down), a re-feed day is incorporated to encourage glycogen supercompensation etc.

Also, you say ergo a lot haha what is that?

lol.. it means 'therefore'... or consequently.

I write like how i speak.

..and I really do say 'ergo'

Secondly, how do you feel in the Malto/Dextrose & Protein PWO shake? I like it in terms of taste haha, but i feel like i'm cheating every time i drink one of them. I know Nova uses complex carbs, but is it safe to say its good to consume these right after am intense workout? What about right after cardio?

I've used Dex... Sports nutrition guys always pull the latest studies which site that high glycemic carbs pwo are optimal.

The debate will always rage on.

Personally.. I don't like the inclusion of pure sugar pwo (and yes i know that malto is technically complex).

I get 'fatter' when i consume pure sugar pwo.

I have tried it both ways a number of times.. including during contest prep.

Personally I'm more comfortable suggesting the pwo application of complex carbs.

I use 50 grams of whey, with 50 grams of malto and 30 grams of dextrose. Is this fine?

If you're using a nutrient partitioning agent.. sure.

Otherwise...that's too much whey..and too much sugar.

The purpose of the pwo shake is to initiate protein synthesis..and to curtail cortisol.

Still there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

I believe that without the use of a GDA that it is pointless to push too much food pwo.

Especially if your diet tru-out the day isn't particularly depletive.

Last, but how long do you usually have your last meal before your workout? I ate yesterday 30 minutes before i hit up the gym, but i usually wait around 2 hours. Whats a good rule of thumb here?

Thanks guys.

This is a matter of personal preference.

There was a time that i could NOT train unless i'd eaten at least 30 minutes prior.

Other times, I couldn't train if my last meal was more than an hour prior.

I eat when i'm hungry.

I just modify the amount consumed (and the type of fuel) based on the proximity to the workout.



-CNS

[MaGiCJNG]

Hey thanks for the response.

Ok so do you suggest for PWO i use what, 40-50 grams of protein and maybe 40-50 grams of oatmeal? What is your PWO meal? Can i add malto into this since its considered complex?

Any suggestions would be awesome.

Thanks.

Oh and to Nolva, where do you fit your peanut butter into your diet haha?

[Narkissos]

Yup I think the mantra of 2.0g/lbs doesnt have much foundation. Pretty much any study I've read never goes saying that one will yield additional benefit from over 1.5lbs of LEAN weight. That is around how much I take, divided approximatively equally amongst 6 meals and PWO shake


-CNS

Awww how cute... You even signed using my signature

[novastepp]

Hey Nark and Nova

I have adjusted my diet to include complex carbs in every meal (as you know Nova, you helped me already in this regard), stating i will get my trivial amount of fats from the meats i eat.

I think i am going to carb cycle though, as it makes sense to me. But i saw you mention a refeed day. What does this mean?

Also, you say ergo a lot haha what is that?

Secondly, how do you feel in the Malto/Dextrose & Protein PWO shake? I like it in terms of taste haha, but i feel like i'm cheating every time i drink one of them. I know Nova uses complex carbs, but is it safe to say its good to consume these right after am intense workout? What about right after cardio?

I use 50 grams of whey, with 50 grams of malto and 30 grams of dextrose. Is this fine?

Last, but how long do you usually have your last meal before your workout? I ate yesterday 30 minutes before i hit up the gym, but i usually wait around 2 hours. Whats a good rule of thumb here?

Thanks guys.

Nark already chimed in, but I would like to also say that I don't see a need for simple sugars PWO. I have stated this in a lot of other threads, lately I ranted for a little in the thread titled something like "PWO carbs necessary?"

Also, My rule of thumb is you should eat as close to your workout as you can, while feeling energetic and while not feeling sick during compound lifts. Honestly, and hour is a good number usually for me. I usually wait a little longer on leg day.

[novastepp]

Hey thanks for the response.

Ok so do you suggest for PWO i use what, 40-50 grams of protein and maybe 40-50 grams of oatmeal? What is your PWO meal? Can i add malto into this since its considered complex?

Any suggestions would be awesome.

Thanks.

Oh and to Nolva, where do you fit your peanut butter into your diet haha?

my freaking contraindication from hell... my PB addiction. i try not to buy it. but when i'm craving a cheat i will use peanut butter over a lot of the junk other guys use. so for me its a cheat.

[THEGOLDPRO]

ok i could use some help here, im 26 6'1 weight 220, no idea on bodyfat. i own a landscaping business and work my balls off, i barely have time to eat let alone eat right most of the time. i want to trim down a bit and was wondering how possible it was without having to eat the 5-6 small meals a day as i just dont have the time.

And what would you reccomend i start eating as far a foods go to help me out. i usualy never eat breakfast, and for lunch i usually get a sandwich at a deli, such as roastbeef on a hardroll, dinner is always diffrent. usualy never healthy food, lol.

[Braunstein]

Is Nark suspended?


Any input on the sample diet I posted about...?

I need some help.

[DrBell]

Not any specific reply on your diet. Hate to see nark suspended. Not stealing these guys show, but I totally agree with them. I know I only have like 70 something post and these guys are vets, but My degree involves a lot of nutrition. I agree with them on everything they are saying. Moderation on carbs. No simple carbs, only complex ones. Lots of protein and very low fat. Only fats taken in need to be of the O M E G A 3,6,&9 category that you would get out of fish, flax or borage oils. Everyone should avoid milk and everything else that is white except beans, eggs, and cauliflower. Milk is very bad for you. It is intended for baby calf not humans. Rice milk is safe for men. Soy contains alot of phytoestrogens as well. Sugar, flour, starches all bad. Don't shop the middle isles of the store. Bottom line is if it ain't in your cabinet you won't eat it. So, learn how to shop properly. Get the produce up front, meat down the side isle, and the juice and eggs are in the last isle. Fruit juice that is. Awe dream with me. If we could only go to the store and get our juice. LOL NE way back to the subject..... The middle isles are boxed foods with thickeners which are starches, noodles, baked goods, chips, sodas, snacks. All these things are empty calories that have no place in an athletes body.
Peanut butter? Hmmm I can rationalize protein and some good fats. LOL

[BWhitaker]

ok i could use some help here, im 26 6'1 weight 220, no idea on bodyfat. i own a landscaping business and work my balls off, i barely have time to eat let alone eat right most of the time. i want to trim down a bit and was wondering how possible it was without having to eat the 5-6 small meals a day as i just dont have the time.

And what would you reccomend i start eating as far a foods go to help me out. i usualy never eat breakfast, and for lunch i usually get a sandwich at a deli, such as roastbeef on a hardroll, dinner is always diffrent. usualy never healthy food, lol.

What hours do you work...do you take a lunch break?

Usually people that say they cant eat 5 meals per day only can't because they are not creative enough, or dont know how to prepare food so it is easy to consume quickly. I sometimes precook a couple servings chicken and cut into bites, throw in a serving of brown rice, add my seasonings etc and pack a fork. I could eat that in less than 2 minutes. Just shovel, chew a little, swallow with water, repeat.

So if you ate breakfast before work, eat a half meal between breakfast and lunch, eat lunch, eat a half meal between lunch and after work, after work eat dinner, and get a final meal in a little before bed

[BWhitaker]

Is Nark suspended?

Yeah, whats up with that. Anyone?

[THEGOLDPRO]

What hours do you work...do you take a lunch break?

Usually people that say they cant eat 5 meals per day only can't because they are not creative enough, or dont know how to prepare food so it is easy to consume quickly. I sometimes precook a couple servings chicken and cut into bites, throw in a serving of brown rice, add my seasonings etc and pack a fork. I could eat that in less than 2 minutes. Just shovel, chew a little, swallow with water, repeat.

So if you ate breakfast before work, eat a half meal between breakfast and lunch, eat lunch, eat a half meal between lunch and after work, after work eat dinner, and get a final meal in a little before bed

i work from about 8am-5-6 almost everyday. also without going too too crazy what do you guys recomend for lunch and dinner, i never pack a lunch i just grab something from a local deli while im out.

[BWhitaker]

i work from about 8am-5-6 almost everyday. also without going too too crazy what do you guys recomend for lunch and dinner, i never pack a lunch i just grab something from a local deli while im out.

The problem is grabbing something from a local deli. While you can usually eat alright at a deli (if you are bulking) it is usually not idea. It is hard to get the required protein and the quality of carbs is usually low.

Pack a lunch.

In order to find out what you should pack, figure out what macros you want in each meal and then find convenient sources that fulfill that need

[Beefkake31]

i know you want Nark's opinion, but myself I don't see a need to eat at a sub maintenance level if you base your caloric needs off of your LBM. You will probably hear that a lot in this thread if you follow it, but it really shows great results both on paper and in the real world applications. The ability to stay full, and keep any and all strength and size gains is very attainable following this kind of approach, you just need to find the correct carbs and varying protein choices.

No, I definitely like to hear your opinions always too Nova, respect your knowledge just as much.

[Beefkake31]

To Nova and Nark:

I'm starting to see the concepts of this approach. I will say I am going to do some experimenting with this approach and also a lower carb slightly higher fat approach with no cycling for the next few weeks. I want to experience both see what works best for me. I know of course performance wise the carbs have to be there in a decent amount. Thanks for the insights and help guys.

[TR'05]

Not any specific reply on your diet. Hate to see nark suspended. Not stealing these guys show, but I totally agree with them. I know I only have like 70 something post and these guys are vets, but My degree involves a lot of nutrition. I agree with them on everything they are saying. Moderation on carbs. No simple carbs, only complex ones. Lots of protein and very low fat. Only fats taken in need to be of the O M E G A 3,6,&9 category that you would get out of fish, flax or borage oils. Everyone should avoid milk and everything else that is white except beans, eggs, and cauliflower. Milk is very bad for you. It is intended for baby calf not humans. Rice milk is safe for men. Soy contains alot of phytoestrogens as well. Sugar, flour, starches all bad. Don't shop the middle isles of the store. Bottom line is if it ain't in your cabinet you won't eat it. So, learn how to shop properly. Get the produce up front, meat down the side isle, and the juice and eggs are in the last isle. Fruit juice that is. Awe dream with me. If we could only go to the store and get our juice. LOL NE way back to the subject..... The middle isles are boxed foods with thickeners which are starches, noodles, baked goods, chips, sodas, snacks. All these things are empty calories that have no place in an athletes body.
Peanut butter? Hmmm I can rationalize protein and some good fats. LOL

With respect to the bolded portion of your reply, I have to respectfully disagree.

Moderate amounts of saturated fats are vitally important to any physically active individual; and, even more so for those training for strength. I don't even think I have to go into the details with respect to this.


Nark & Nova, I am happy that you two have started this thread. Too often people are offering up IMHO poor, vague, or simply uninformed advice. This could be sticky-worthy in the foreseeable future.

Although my own methodologies differ quite markedly with your own, I am always eager to read what both of you have to say when it comes to nutrition.

[pump.joe]

Why exactly is milk bad for you?

[BWhitaker]

FROM NARKISSOS:


Suspension.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I formulated a single post which had 4 or so links to a discussion going on on my board, which contained explanations for stuff we're discussing on my thread in the diet forum.

I was subsequently banned/suspended for a month. (2weeks)
The reason given was: "posting links to other baords"

^^Typo-inclusive.

So I guess Nova will have to take over this thread... Or i could PM him replies which he can re-post at this convenience.

We'll see.

-CNS
__________________________________________________ _________-

Sounds a little harsh to me, considering the good he gives this board. I do undertand that admins concerns, but a month!

THE SUSPENSION IS ACTUALLY 2 WEEKS. ADMIN SAYS HE MADE HONEST MISTAKE

[sepp2323]

nova can u please help me out with my diet. im pretty lean but i think im stuck and i cant get rid of these last 10 pounds of fat i wana lose. cna u help?

this is my first time ever doing attempting to do macros. i think i eat pretty well but i have never added everything up so here goes. let me first say im 32 yrs old..around 200. do pushups, kettlebells, chin ups 3-4 days a week for about 30-40 minutes..then 5 days a week i do 30 minutes of sprints afterwards..5 minute warmup,1 minute sprint/4 minute medium - rinse and repeat 4 more times..then do 5 minute cooldown.

my goal is to get leaner than i already am. i know this is not that great so please help.


meal 1:

6 eggwhites (100/22/2/1)
2 whole wheat bread. (200/8/40/4)

total - (300/30/42/5)

meal 3:

2 scoops whey protein (240/46/6/4)
1 tablespoon flax (120/0/0/13)

total - (360/46/6/17)

meal 3:

9 oz chicken (425/80/0/9)
3 oz brown rice (095/2/20/0)

total - (520/82/20/9)

meal 4:

2 scoops whey protein (240/46/6/4)

total - (240/46/6/4)


meal 5:

2 scoops whey protein (240/46/6/4)

total - (240/46/6/4)


meal 6:

6oz cottage cheese (110/16/10/0)

total - (110/16/10/0)


totals:

(1870 cal/266 protein/80 carbs/49fat)

[Prada]

i work from about 8am-5-6 almost everyday. also without going too too crazy what do you guys recomend for lunch and dinner, i never pack a lunch i just grab something from a local deli while im out.

It all depends on your daily required macros. Therefore what would be needed it what ever is missing in your total macros. That is however rather simplistic. Yuo have to take things like nutrient timing into consideration. Easiest way is to determine your daily required macros and divide it into 5-6 meals.

[ChuckLee]

I think some Mod should change the title of this thread in "Free Diet Advice by Novastepp".
He will be surely up to this.

CL

[BWhitaker]

nova can u please help me out with my diet. im pretty lean but i think im stuck and i cant get rid of these last 10 pounds of fat i wana lose. cna u help?

this is my first time ever doing attempting to do macros. i think i eat pretty well but i have never added everything up so here goes. let me first say im 32 yrs old..around 200. do pushups, kettlebells, chin ups 3-4 days a week for about 30-40 minutes..then 5 days a week i do 30 minutes of sprints afterwards..5 minute warmup,1 minute sprint/4 minute medium - rinse and repeat 4 more times..then do 5 minute cooldown.

WHERE ARE THE WEIGHTS. YOU SHOULD INCORPORATE AT LEAST SOME HEAVY RESISTANCE TRAINING. GIVE YOUR MUSCLES A REASON TO STAY

my goal is to get leaner than i already am. i know this is not that great so please help.


meal 1:

6 eggwhites (100/22/2/1)
2 whole wheat bread. (200/8/40/4)

COULD DEF PICK A BETTER CARB SOURCE. WHOLE WHEAT BREAD ISNT TERRIBLE, BUT JUST THROW IN SOME OATS INSTEAD. ALSO UP YOUR PROTEIN A LITTLE. ONE MEAL THREE (WITH CHICKEN AND RICE) YOU DONT NEED 82 GMS OF PROTEIN IN ONE MEAL SO ADJUST ACCORDINGLY. ALSO, YOUR TOTAL CALORIES ARE PROBABLY A BIT TOO LOW AND THIS IS A GOOD PLACE TO THROW IN ANOTHER 200 OR SO CALORIES

total - (300/30/42/5)

meal 3:

2 scoops whey protein (240/46/6/4)
1 tablespoon flax (120/0/0/13)

total - (360/46/6/17)

meal 3:

9 oz chicken (425/80/0/9)
3 oz brown rice (095/2/20/0)

SEE BREAKFAST COMMENTS; TOO MUCH PROTEIN IN ONE SITTING

total - (520/82/20/9)

meal 4:

2 scoops whey protein (240/46/6/4)

total - (240/46/6/4)

ANOTHER GREAT PLACE TO ADD SOME CALORIES. SOME WOULD SAY ADD A FAT SOURCE, THOUGH THIS THREAD WILL PROBABLY SUBSCRIBE TO ADDING COMPLEX CARBS. EITHER WAY, THIS PROTEIN WILL BE DONE DIGESTING IN A COUPLE OF HOURS SO YOU WANT TO SLOW DOWN THIS PROCESS BY ADDING SOMETHING


meal 5:

2 scoops whey protein (240/46/6/4)

total - (240/46/6/4)

SEE ABOVE, MEAL 4


meal 6:

6oz cottage cheese (110/16/10/0)

total - (110/16/10/0)


totals:

(1870 cal/266 protein/80 carbs/49fat)

CORRECTION: YOUR CALORIES ARE ONLY 1770. THAT IS TOO LOW IMO. CARBS DEF NEED TO BE ADDED

ALSO, WHEN DO YOU WORKOUT

[novastepp]

sorry i havent been around. i have a life to tend to as well

as far as Nark's suspension. I'm not going to speak on his or any Admin's behalf, but yes he is suspended for posting links to his board.

However, I am more than happy to send Nark any and all questions via PM if necessary. I will be in communication with him throughout his suspension as well.

so the thread will continue as soon as I can get time to reply. Until then, please leave your questions...