Guns and Ammo Thread

[Beetlegeuse]

H.R. 6126 – End the Normalized Delay of Suppressor Act of 2020
Posted on March 26, 2020 by Aaron Spuler

Finally, some good news – a light on the horizon in what seems to be an endless sea of anti-gun bills! Earlier this month, Rep. Greg Steube (R-FL-17) introduced H.R. 6126, a bill that would cap ATF transfer times on suppressors at 90 days. If not approved within the 90-day time frame, any application that has not been denied would, by default, be deemed approved.

For years, the American Suppressor Association and our industry partners have called for a maximum time limit on transfers, relaunching the eForm 4, and the general modernization of the NFA. While our goal remains the same – to remove suppressors from the onerous regulations of the NFA altogether – Rep. Steube’s bill would be a huge step forward in reducing the unacceptably long transfer times that buyers often face.

Utilize the contact form to request your Representative support H.R. 6126:

Federal Legislation

[Beetlegeuse]

Neither hurricanes nor 9/11 caused as big a surge in gun sales as coronavirus

MIAMI — Gun shop owners have never seen such a surge in sales —not after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, not in reaction to mass shootings, not even when Category 5 hurricanes threatened to flatten South Florida.

Fear and uncertainty about the impact of the coronavirus pandemic are motivating people to buy guns and ammunition as they seek protection from possible doomsday disintegration into lawlessness, with home invasions, looting, runs on banks, and fights over food, medicine, hospital beds and shelter across the land.

"Our sales are up 80 percent, with a huge increase in first-time buyers who are worried about martial law, economic collapse, unemployment, shortages, delinquents roaming the streets," said Alex Elenberg, manager of Charlie's Armory on West Flagler Street. "If you can't defend your house and your family, what good are you?"...



There Is No COVID-19 Exception In The United States Constitution

...My rights do not flow from the government. My rights do not depend on whether a government bureaucrat isn’t working...

...A right to life presupposes a right to protect that right, a.k.a. self defense. That right presumes a right to appropriate tools for defense, a.k.a. firearms and ammunition.....



After Coronavirus, California Has a Major Disarmament Edict Waiting in the Wings

...[O]ne of the more committed citizen disarmament enthusiasts in the legislature, Assemblyman David Chiu, resurrected a gun-grabber dream list priority, microstamping, a requirement for firearms to mark an identifier on ammunition casings, the San Francisco Chronicle reported....

[Beetlegeuse]

John Cleese roasts Americans for buying guns during pandemic: 'Terribly funny'

“It strikes me that it’s terribly funny that the response of some Americans to a virus is to buy guns. Buying guns seems to be the default position for some of the American electorate,...

...When confronted by something upsetting, they buy guns — Bears…same-sex marriages….global warming…albino raccoons…long words…Hispanics…ANY kind of panics… Let’s go shopping!!!”




"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". -- Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2

[David LoPan]

This covid thing has taught me that I don't have enough ammo on hand. Plenty of gun but there are so many stupid people out nowadays

[GearHeaded]

This covid thing has taught me that I don't have enough ammo on hand. Plenty of gun but there are so many stupid people out nowadays

I traded 4 boxes of 7.62 ammo the other day for some packs of chicken cause my local stores were totally empty of meat

[Beetlegeuse]

This covid thing has taught me that I don't have enough ammo on hand. Plenty of gun but there are so many stupid people out nowadays

You can never have too much ammunition ... unless you're drowning or on fire.

But if you're worried about having enough ammo, the natural follow-on question is how long can you hold out if you can't get to a grocery store?

[Beetlegeuse]

This actually stands a chance of succeeding because the Trumpster has stacked the 9th Circus Court of Appeals with conservative judges.Previously it was so thick with loony-lefty judges intent on legislating from the bench that 2A/RKBA never stood a chance of getting a fair shake.

BREAKING: FPC, SAF, CGF, NRA File Federal Lawsuit Against L.A. Sheriff Villanueva, California Gov. Newsom Over Constitutional Violations

BREAKING: FPC, SAF, CGF, NRA File Federal Lawsuit Against L.A. Sheriff Villanueva, California Gov. Newsom Over Constitutional Violations

by Dan Zimmerman |

Mar 27, 2020 |

From the Firearms Policy Coalition:

Today, attorneys for plaintiffs including individuals, a Los Angeles firearm and ammunition retailer, Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), National Rifle Association of America (NRA), California Gun Rights Foundation (CGF), and Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) filed a federal lawsuit challenging state and local policies and enforcement practices that violate Second and Fourteenth Amendment rights. A copy of the lawsuit can be found at www.firearmspolicy.org/brandy.

“California’s attack on fundamental rights in times of emergency must be stopped in its tracks,” observed SAF founder and Executive Vice President, Alan Gottlieb. “This case is part of our mission to win firearms freedom one lawsuit at a time. And more, the lawsuits we are filing across the country are making a large number of other states, counties, and cities think twice before closing down essential gun stores.”

“Twenty-eight years ago, the LAPD had to withdraw their officers to protect their safety. We hope that the stay-home orders will mean that our public servants will not become infected in this pandemic, but the Constitution guarantees that everyone has a right to acquire arms and defend themselves should law enforcement not be able to respond before it’s too late,” remarked CGF Chairman, Gene Hoffman. “No petty autocrat can be allowed to suspend the Bill of Rights.”

“Municipalities and states that target lawful gun stores for closure aren’t promoting safety—by weaponizing their politics to disarm you and your loved ones, these shameless partisans are wantonly promoting a gun-control agenda that suffocates your Second Amendment rights when you need them most,” commented NRA-ILA Executive Director, Jason Ouimet. “NRA members recognize these unlawful power-grabs for what they are, and the National Rifle Association is proud to stand and fight alongside fellow Second Amendment groups who recognize it as well.”

“Especially due to the restrictive nature of California’s Byzantine gun laws that require the use of licensed dealers to buy and transfer both firearms and ammunition, the defendants’ orders and actions challenged individually and collectively violate the Constitution and individuals’ fundamental rights to keep and bear arms and due process of law,” explained attorney and FPC Director of Legal Strategy, Adam Kraut. “These irrational and outrageous fiat restrictions cannot withstand constitutional scrutiny and must be enjoined from enforcement.”

“California’s State and local governments cannot simply suspend the Constitution,” FPC President Brandon Combs said. “This case is one of many actions FPC is taking around the United States to fight for liberty and freedom. The entire FPC team has been and will remain all-hands-on-deck, working around the clock on important efforts to safeguard the People’s individual liberties and property, especially the rights to keep and bear arms, free speech, privacy, and due process. FPC is fully committed to uniting the advocacy space and partnering with organizations and law firms around the country to fight government abuses and defend the People’s right to defend their lives and homes. We especially wish to recognize and thank our incredible members and supporters who make all of our legal action, research, and grassroots activism programs possible.”

[C27H40O3]

This actually stands a chance of succeeding because the Trumpster has stacked the 9th Circus Court of Appeals with conservative judges.Previously it was so thick with loony-lefty judges intent on legislating from the bench that 2A/RKBA never stood a chance of getting a fair shake.

BREAKING: FPC, SAF, CGF, NRA File Federal Lawsuit Against L.A. Sheriff Villanueva, California Gov. Newsom Over Constitutional Violations

BREAKING: FPC, SAF, CGF, NRA File Federal Lawsuit Against L.A. Sheriff Villanueva, California Gov. Newsom Over Constitutional Violations

by Dan Zimmerman |

Mar 27, 2020 |

From the Firearms Policy Coalition:

Today, attorneys for plaintiffs including individuals, a Los Angeles firearm and ammunition retailer, Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), National Rifle Association of America (NRA), California Gun Rights Foundation (CGF), and Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) filed a federal lawsuit challenging state and local policies and enforcement practices that violate Second and Fourteenth Amendment rights. A copy of the lawsuit can be found at www.firearmspolicy.org/brandy.

“California’s attack on fundamental rights in times of emergency must be stopped in its tracks,” observed SAF founder and Executive Vice President, Alan Gottlieb. “This case is part of our mission to win firearms freedom one lawsuit at a time. And more, the lawsuits we are filing across the country are making a large number of other states, counties, and cities think twice before closing down essential gun stores.”

“Twenty-eight years ago, the LAPD had to withdraw their officers to protect their safety. We hope that the stay-home orders will mean that our public servants will not become infected in this pandemic, but the Constitution guarantees that everyone has a right to acquire arms and defend themselves should law enforcement not be able to respond before it’s too late,” remarked CGF Chairman, Gene Hoffman. “No petty autocrat can be allowed to suspend the Bill of Rights.”

“Municipalities and states that target lawful gun stores for closure aren’t promoting safety—by weaponizing their politics to disarm you and your loved ones, these shameless partisans are wantonly promoting a gun-control agenda that suffocates your Second Amendment rights when you need them most,” commented NRA-ILA Executive Director, Jason Ouimet. “NRA members recognize these unlawful power-grabs for what they are, and the National Rifle Association is proud to stand and fight alongside fellow Second Amendment groups who recognize it as well.”

“Especially due to the restrictive nature of California’s Byzantine gun laws that require the use of licensed dealers to buy and transfer both firearms and ammunition, the defendants’ orders and actions challenged individually and collectively violate the Constitution and individuals’ fundamental rights to keep and bear arms and due process of law,” explained attorney and FPC Director of Legal Strategy, Adam Kraut. “These irrational and outrageous fiat restrictions cannot withstand constitutional scrutiny and must be enjoined from enforcement.”

“California’s State and local governments cannot simply suspend the Constitution,” FPC President Brandon Combs said. “This case is one of many actions FPC is taking around the United States to fight for liberty and freedom. The entire FPC team has been and will remain all-hands-on-deck, working around the clock on important efforts to safeguard the People’s individual liberties and property, especially the rights to keep and bear arms, free speech, privacy, and due process. FPC is fully committed to uniting the advocacy space and partnering with organizations and law firms around the country to fight government abuses and defend the People’s right to defend their lives and homes. We especially wish to recognize and thank our incredible members and supporters who make all of our legal action, research, and grassroots activism programs possible.”

Hear hear


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[Beetlegeuse]

NICS checks last month up >80% over March 2019

[Beetlegeuse]

Jerry Miculek shows what happens if you stick your wiener next to the cylinder gap of a .460 S&W Magnum ... and pull the trigger.

[Beetlegeuse]

It's good to know that all the demoncrats aren't entirely preoccupied with Impeaching Trump45 because he's saving the nation from coronavisus and are tending to the nation's welfare.

Kommiefornia representative Jimmy Panetta has introduced H.R.5949 - National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Data Integrity Act of 2020. If signed into law, your next instant background check for a firearm purchase could take as much as 30 days. Or longer, "for as long as necessary to determine whether receipt of a firearm by the person would violate subsections (g) or (n) of such section or State law." Which could be never. So you're guilty until proved innocent.

And fellow Kommiefornia representative Barbara Lee has introduced H.R.5917 - Gun Records Restoration and Preservation Act, which will repeal the current requirement to destroy all records of an NICS check within 24 hours, which will lead to the establishment of a national firearms ownership database.

But they have to pass in both houses, and the President has to sign them first.

[Proximal]

Whats the quickest way to purchase a gun in Los Angeles at this time?

Not joking, I’m afraid, very serious. I am getting concerned. TY.

Of course I know you don’t live here, but an educated guess???

[C27H40O3]

“Trump is saving the nation”????

The virus must be making you delirious.

Get back to reality.

Look at this boob.

https://youtu.be/hB8icFsfJe0

The best quote. “National emergency, two very big words”. What a fuckin clown!


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[Proximal]

Whats the quickest way to purchase a gun in Los Angeles at this time?

Not joking, I’m afraid, very serious. I am getting concerned. TY.

Of course I know you don’t live here, but an educated guess???

Ah, found some stores. Surprised, let’s see what they have.

[almostgone]

Jerry Miculek shows what happens if you stick your wiener next to the cylinder gap of a .460 S&W Magnum ... and pull the trigger.

LOL, why would anyone not have both hands on the grip and just a tad under the shoulder of the frame.
The shock wave from the compensator is phenomenal for a pistol.

[Beetlegeuse]

Whats the quickest way to purchase a gun in Los Angeles at this time? ...

THE quickest way? Drive over to Compton with a pocket full of Benjamins.

The quickest way with a better than even chance of not getting killed? Road trip to Arizona.

The quickest way that's both legal and you have better than 50/50 odds of surviving? Too many qualifications, I'll have to think on that. But it invariably will focus on the citizen's obligation to ignore any law that violates any clause in the Bill of Rights.

[Proximal]

Beetle TY. There’s a “throw back” community close around here that seems to have multiple stores open. I might have a connection at one of them. Going to do some shopping next week. I always appreciate your knowledge.

The wife and I have been contemplating this decision since we switched from a very secure condo to a home. She’s very anti-gun, but will remember the mess Los Angeles had after our last big quake & also the Rodney King bs. When the virus numbers start reaching a peak here in a few weeks, things could possibly get delicate.

Appreciate your advice!

[Beetlegeuse]

LOL, why would anyone not have both hands on the grip and just a tad under the shoulder of the frame...

You need to ask that of the guy who owns what's left of this hand:




Meet Todd Brown of Rosston, Ark. In 2007, he shot his S&W .460 using the "thumbs forward" grip. Then he had the temerity to sue S&W for his stupidity.

[almostgone]

You need to ask that of the guy who owns what's left of this hand:




Meet Todd Brown of Rosston, Ark. In 2007, he shot his S&W .460 using the "thumbs forward" grip. Then he had the temerity to sue S&W for his stupidity.

That sounds about right in today's climate. Suing a company because of negligence by the consumer. What a beanpod.

[C27H40O3]

At least he doesn’t have to worry about that thumb print he left at that homicide scene years back.


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[Hoss34]

I prefer not to show my guns.

[Beetlegeuse]

This is nothing but virtue signalling, a dog whistle from a demoncrat to his rabid hoplophobe constituents. Because it will never stand judicial review. There's already an 11% FET on all firearms, and they're not likely to get one red cent more without it being flagged as a restriction on gun rights. Not so long as there are six originalists on SCOTUS.

Congress proposes 50% tax on guns and ammunition in the US

Congress is considering a bill to require citizens to apply for a federal license before being able to purchase a firearm.

And the government would have the authority to deny a license, even if the applicant has no criminal history or mental health issues.

That makes this essentially a nationwide “red flag law.” The government can deny or revoke a license if they arbitrarily deem you to be a problem.

The proposed law would also tax firearms at 30% and ammunition at 50%.

Meanwhile, March saw record firearm sales.

The FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System processed 3.7 million background checks required to buy firearms. That is the highest month on record since the system began in 1998.

Click here to read the bill.

[Beetlegeuse]

In this case, "gun reform" means loosening gun restrictions. IOW, there was a precipitous drop when private citizens had increased access to firearms.

Gun Law Reform in Bolsonaro’s Brazil, Homicides Drop Precipitously

...When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.

Brazil has not had a homicide rate this low since 1995, before the highly restrictive gun law of 1997 was passed....

[Beetlegeuse]

Beetle TY. There’s a “throw back” community close around here that seems to have multiple stores open. I might have a connection at one of them. Going to do some shopping next week. I always appreciate your knowledge....

Proximal, my answer was too snarky by half and in fact I was being somewhat dismissive because you live in the golden cesspool. I regard myself as an ordained minister in the First Church of RKBA, and I'm always eager to lead the repentant down the path of righteousness, but in your case I more dumped on you more than helped you. And I've been trying ever since to figure a way to make it up to you but nothing I'm writing passes muster (you've opened a really big can of worms). So I'm being as brief as possible and ASSuMEing you don't know jack-shit about guns, so please don't take offense, it'd take me another six weeks to write something I thought made a worthy reply. This won't meet my usual (bellicose) standards but it might at least be of use to you.

If you don't know a lot about guns, and you don't have the natural inclination to flaunt the law, and you live in Mexifornia, you need to make sure your firearm purchase, ownership and use remains scrupulously with in the bounds of state law. I think that for two reasons.

First, if you're not already competent in the safe use of firearms, you need training from someone who has impeccable credentials. And I'm talking beyond the state's pre-purchase requirements. If you have to use your new gun in self-defense, the knowledge they can give you increases the likelihood of a better outcome from the shooting incident itself, plus it could reduce your exposure to criminal and civil action after the shooting.


If you don't buy that, here's a talk given about more recently (~2012) by a noted trauma anesthesiologist from a major hospital in Washington state.



At about 1:45 he states that survival rate for handgun shootings is 6 out of 7, about 86%. Different study, different data sets, a decade's improvement in emergency trauma medicine, same conclusion. Handguns do a shitty job of killing people.

Yes, I am fixated on "killing" because that's the crux of the biscuit. Unless it's being bought for sporting purposes, it would be misguided to water it down and think you're getting a firearm for anything less. If it's intended for home or self defense, then you're buying it so you can have the proper tool available in case you cross paths with someone who needs killing. A gun isn't a magic talisman you can wave in a criminal's face and cause him to vanish in a wisp of smoke. Buying a gun thinking you can use it to frighten away evil is a good way to get killed. Get it through your head at the outset that what you're buying is a tool to make it as easy as possible to end the life of a fellow human being. All subsequent decisions should trickle down from that reality.

The biggest single reason 80% (or 86%, depending on the study) of GSW victims didn't die had next to nothing to do with the cartridge they'd been shot with and practically everything to do with shot placement. Every handgun made is capable of killing reliably if employed properly. The old USSR's master executioner used a .25 ACP, the most anemic centerfire pistol cartridge in existence. And he never missed.

And it's every bit as essential that you train even if you decide to get a long gun, because the hazard to innocents is far greater from a miss with a long gun than from a handgun. Misses with a rifle could be even costlier.

And you can't get training with your new gun, then take it to the range on a regular basis for target practice without it becoming public knowledge that you own a gun. And that could lead to you finding yourself jammed up in a place like Mexifornia if you weren't religiously following the law.

The second reason is that even if you use it with justification, unless your possession and use of the firearm is squeaky-clean by Kommiefornia law, you're in for an ass-fucking.

You asked where to get a gun without asking what kind, which struck me a bit odd, so I'm further ASSuMEing you need advice in that regard, too.

My first recommendation is that you get a long gun. Why? Because handguns do a shitty job of killing people. If they didn't you'd find armies equipped with nothing but handguns. But there is no such animal. I have dozens of guns, more handguns than long guns, but when there's a bump in the night, I grab a long gun to investigate. EVERY time.

My recommendation would be a shotgun. Not so much because it's easier to hit your target, although it is true, but to a much smaller extent than most people think. Most shotgun barrels have a constriction near the muzzle called a "choke" that serves to control the spread of the shot after it leaves the barrel. Most home defense/self defense shotguns are "full" choke, which produces a relatively tight pattern. With a full choke your shot group opens to about nine inches at 10 yards, a foot at 15 yards. So it's a significant spread but you still need to aim carefully, especially because the buckshot sizes that are effective for self defense also will go zinging through several walls in a house.

Bird shot (the size used for small game hunting) is less prone to penetrating residential walls, but that also makes them less likely to kill the guy you thought needed it.



Based on the number of holes, the size of the shot spread, and that fact that he appears still to be very much alive, I'd guess he was shot from 10-15 yards (using a "sporting" shotgun with a choke "looser" than full) with #3 or #4 birdshot. Check out the limited blood on the waist band of his drawers. He wouldn't have bled to death if he'd gone for a jog. But he's the posterboy for NOT using too small of a shot size in your home-defense shotgun.

Bigger number means smaller pellets. #3 birdshot (as in the photo above) is pretty large for birdshot but any buckshot is larger than all birdshot. #1 buckshot is widely regarded as the minimum size to get the penetration necessary to kill reliably.

The "standard" for home defense is the 12-gauge pump but you don't have to follow the herd. It doesn't have to be a pump (even the US military is using autoloading shotguns now) and doesn't have to be a 12-gauge. And a hunting shotgun kills just as dead as a military-looking one. But you'll find more self-defense loadings in 12-gauge than any other.

Double-ought (.33 caliber) is the standard for military and professional security but there is larger still (000 and buck-and-ball). Another reason I like shotguns in the home-defense role is multiple projectiles mean multiple wound channels. Multiple traumas require multiple medical procedures and present multiple opportunities to hit something that will cause death. 00 also will go through three or four interior walls if you miss. So will #1 buck (.30 caliber) but less of them.

They still make shotguns in 16 and 20 gauge and .410 (bore). As with shot, the smaller gauge number means a bigger bore and bigger bore means more kick (the .410 continues to use the English bore/caliber designation and is the equivalent of a 67-gauge). Self-defense loadings are less commonly available in other gauges but you can get 00 shells even for the "puny" .410 shotgun (the smallest commonly available gauge) but there's only three or four pellets per shell. 12-gauge gets eight or nine. Each individual pellet might be just as lethal but the 12-gauge just has more of them. 12 gauges can be pretty punishing to shoot (depends a lot on the load), which is why guys shooting skeet or trap or sporting clays tend to wear a vest with a padded shoulder.

More reasons I'd recommend a shottie: It's less evil in the eyes of the Kommiefornia Politburo. And there'll be far less stigma attached to buying a box of shotgun shells than a box of pistol cartridges. And the ammunition isn't so critical. There is a staggering array of bullets used in commercial loadings of rifle and handgun cartrdges, and they don't all do the business of SD/HD equally well. But a 00 load is a 00 load, regardless who makes it.

Plenty of rifles would make excellent HD firearms. What makes the AR-15 so lethal isn't the military appearance, it's the .223 Remington cartridge that it shoots. Which was a modified from the .222 Remington cartridge. Which was made primarily for guys who hunt varmints; prairie dogs, woodchucks, marmots, ... animals the size of a small dog. Which is why its detractors like to call the M-16/AR-15 a "poodle-shooter." But you dodge the stigma of the "Evil Black Rifle" by just getting a sporting/hunting rifle chambered in the same round. The Ruger Mini-14 probably is the most widely-known such rifle. If you remember the old 1980's show "The A-Team," the Mini-14 appeared in almost every episode.





And there's plenty of other cartridges besides the .223 that would make a great HD weapon. Any cartridge favored by whitetail deer hunters also would do a number on a human. Lots of semi-automatic hunting rifles are chambered in .308 Winchester, even .300 Winchester Magnum, far more powerful than the poodle-shooter but without the stigma.

And it doesn't have to be an autoloader. How about a lever gun like the Winchester Model 94 or the Marlin 336 chambered in .30-30? Fast follow-up shots with a cartridge that's extremely popular with whitetail hunters but to the best of my knowledge has yet to be used in a mass-murder.


Marlin 336

You probably have been thinking "handgun" while I've been prattling on about shotguns. There's no arguing but that a long gun does a much better job of killing but there admittedly are circumstances when a long gun just is not practical. I wouldn't want to have to use one to fend off a car jacking, so they wouldn't be ideal if you felt compelled to bug out by car. And they're not much help if you want some added security for a trip to a restaurant or an evening at the theater.

If it has to be a handgun, I suggest you get a revolver. Why? Because it's the simplest to learn to use, they're stone reliable, and the corrective action in case of a misfire is to just. pull. the. trigger. again. And if you start out learning to shoot a single action/double action revolver in double-action mode, it teaches you trigger control that will put you in good standing with every other firearm you'll ever shoot. And they're likely to be of benefit to Mexifornians in general because revolvers don't carry as much stigma as semi-automatics.

Right now the world is ga-ga over the high-capacity plastic wunder-guns but a large part of the reason for that is the magazine capacity. Which doesn't do you any good because Mexifornia arbitrarily limits magazine capacity to 10 (which is actually 11 if you count the round already in the chamber). And you can get 8-shot .357 magnum revolvers. The firepower difference between a 6-shot S&W Model 19 revolver and an 18-shot (17+1) Glock 17 is pretty substantial. The difference between a Glock 19 with a 10-shot magazine and an 8-shot S&W Model 627 .357, ... not so much. Especially since there is a device for revolver owners that mimics the function of a detachable magazine.



Open the cylinder, dump the spent casings, stick in the cartridges contained by the speed loader, twist the nob on the loader, pull it back and close the cylinder and you're ready to rock again. In my next post down (I can't put two videos in this post) I'll put a video of Jerry Miculek firing 12 rounds from a six shot revolver in LESS THAN three seconds. Don't blink or you'll miss the reload.

It doesn't have to be a .357 but I mention it because it's a respectable (and respected) SD/HD cartridge, plus you're perfectly fine shooting (cheaper & less recoiling) .38 Special rounds in a .357. So the .357 has that extra measure of flexibility. The same can be said of the .44 Magnum (you can shoot .44 Special in it, no problemo) but the .44s are more expensive and heavier to tote and buck harder but don't kill deader enough to justify the extra baggage. Don't forget that almost every cop in America carried a 6-shot .38 Spl revolver for about 75 years.

But if it absolutely has to be an autoloader, get a Glock 19 (the best-selling handgun on the planet, and for good reason). It's a half-brother to the Glock 17 (all internals are identical) which is staggeringly reliable, probably the highest mean rounds between failure of any automatic handgun ever made. And they're at a very competitive price point. But only the 10-round magazines are Mexifornia-legal.

And one oddball option is the Taurus Judge. It's a 5-shot revolver chambered in .45 Colt (not the rimless .45 ACP, the more powerful .45 "long" Colt). Coincidentally, the .45 Colt's cartridge head is the same size as the .410 shotgun's. And shotguns shells produce milder pressure than handgun cartridges. So you can shoot a full-grown self-defense handgun cartridge out of the Judge, or load it up with 00 buck shotgun shells. Or both. But it's probably not the hot set-up for concealed carry because the most challenging part of a typical revolver to conceal is the cylinder. And the Judge has an extremely long cylinder to accommodate 3-inch shotgun shells.

If your local gun shop doesn't have what you want, you can find what you want and buy from an online store (usually at a decent discount) and have it shipped to your LGS. An FFL can only ship a gun to another FFL. Most FFLs will accept an incoming gun for a customer for a fee. In my area it's $25-$35. And they'll charge you for having to call the state for the pre-sale background check ($10 here, dunno about Kalifornia). They provide this service because it's pure profit, whereas they have capital and shelf space tied up in the guns they have in stock, and they don't have to order a replacement. You can find the gun you want, ask your LGS to email their FFL# the the online store, call the online store to make the buy, being sure to tell them the LGS will send them their FFL number.

The two online stores I check with for a lowest possible price are Bud's Guns and CDNN Guns. A good place to start if your LGS is short on stock.

Short answer, if you can tolerate its limitations (in portability & concealability), get a long gun. If it has to be a handgun, best to get something that the state of Kalifornia has the smallest possible bug up its ass about. If you have both in your home, the best use for a handgun in home defense is to use to fight your way to wherever you've left your long gun.

For protecting home and hearth, you don't just need a gun, you need a plan. The gun is a tool to aid you in executing that plan. Choose it accordingly.

That's pretty much how I should have replied five days ago. Sorry for the delay, and I hope this helps with your predicament.

Written in haste; many edits sure to follow

[Beetlegeuse]

[almostgone]

Not trying to interrupt the flow Beetlegeuse has going, but I can say Bud's is very easy to work with ( keeping in mind most dealers are SWAMPED right now).

Edit: I don't know of this typical of FFL dealers elsewhere, but some here in SC will only transfer long guns. Fees range from $20- $50 in my area, with $25 being the average for the transfer of handguns or long guns.

[AlterEdge78]

Just picked me up one of these for home defense and practice. FNP-45 tactical. Couldn’t pass up the deal I got on it. I’m shopping for a decent tactical shotgun this week.

[Proximal]

Beetle and AG, thank you VERY much. And Beetle I had absolutely NO problem with your initial answer. I want to thank you for taking ANY time out to answer such a rookie question. That last post, holly crap, it helped TREMENDOUSLY!

I’m hesitant to go to a store currently, because I’m guessing that they have minimal time for a gazillion questions, when there is a line going down the block. I believe we have a few stores still open. I also checked out FFL dealers in the area and there are more than a few and I believe they indicated they also deal in hand guns. I’ve shot hand guns a few times, but wouldn’t be able to mention the exact type only that they were semi-automatics and way back when, when Dirty Harry movies were still the shit, tried out a friends 44 magnum.

I know to many of you out there this will sound strange, but this is for the house (not for the car or to carry, not yet at least) and the wife is a strong anti-gun advocate. She more than understands my position, but also for those in long relationships know that sometimes you must compromise. I know it’s not mega masculine, but it’s the reality that’s allowed 35 years of co-existence.

I will likely go the hand gun route, because she won’t have to see it. I fully comprehend your argument for a shot-gun and fully agree, my usage is for one thing only and that’s to kill the person that is in my house without my consent. I will definitely cross all my t’s and dot my i’s regarding any regulations and plan on a shit-load of training. I know an ex Los Angeles sheriff that will be my first go-to person, but I know out here, the shooting range I’ve gone to have private instructors.

I too was thinking a revolver for simplicity, was looking at the 38 but also was considering a 32 as well. However, ASAP, I’d like to get a silencer/suppressor so IF I were to use it, won’t blow out our ears. They didn’t seem that available for revolvers however. I looked at some articles regarding laser sites, clearly see how much of an assist they could provide but saw some disagreement regarding whether they reveal your position.

Bullet wise, my concern would be missed shots exiting the exterior walls or windows. Believe it or not, I’d rather not and I know my wife would definitely not, want to harm a neighbor with an errant bullet (even though that is a remote chance) & would prefer to take our chances instead. If I had kids, I’m sure I’d think differently.

I have some thinking to do, some further discussions to have with my wife, but feel this will happen. I actually enjoyed shooting, will have a ton of time once retired soon, so it’s a win-win.

I’m going to make some calls, but the information you gave me was incredibly helpful and completely understood. Once again your initial response was completely fine & I didn’t think badly of it in the slightest. I respect and appreciate the time and thought you put into this. I was a physical therapist, my wife and friends are, if there is ever anything we could offer advice wise in that regard, it would be our pleasure!

[Beetlegeuse]

Gun sales up over 200% in some states, most ‘new to gun buying’

...A new report from the National Shooting Sports Foundation shared with Secrets Tuesday showed that the checks jumped over 200% in Michigan and Alabama, which have eliminated ways to skirt the checks.

Did 1 in 20 of American Households Purchase a Gun in Response to COVID-19?

...One in 20 households say they've bought a gun in response to the coronavirus outbreak. That's according to an exclusive Newsy/Ipsos survey showing that many Americans have reacted to COVID-19 and the uncertainty brought on by the pandemic by buying or thinking about buying guns....

Why Owning A Gun Is A Completely Rational Insurance Policy Against Danger

Owning a gun is like keeping a spare tire in your trunk, a first aid kit at home, or an emergency savings account. We hope never to use them, but we’re glad we have them.

... Some people believe you’re more likely to harm yourself or someone else with a gun than to use it in self-defense, but that isn’t the case. The findings of more than 19 surveys specifically designed to measure the number of defensive gun uses all confirm that defensive uses are vastly more common than criminal uses. A small sampling of these can be viewed on the Active Self-Protection YouTube channel, which has collected several hundred video clips of successful civilian self-defense encounters.

The often-heard charge that gun owners are paranoid and fearful is just naive psychoanalysis unsupported by credible research. Indeed, a recent study has found that gun owners report lower levels of fear and victimization than those who don’t own guns. If anything, there is a lot of irrational fear directed toward firearms as inanimate objects, something famed firearms instructor Jeff Cooper calls “hoplophobia.”...

I make frequent use of the "spare tire" analogy. I CCW everywhere there isn't a metal detector or risk of a pat-down. I mentioned this a couple of years ago during the meal at the family Thanksgiving supper (not held at my house). A niece-in-law asked me "Does that mean you're carrying a gun now?"* And I replied "Did you see a metal detector at the door?"

She seemed distressed that I would think it necessary to go armed with deadly force** in such a convivial setting. So I asked her, "Do you have a spare tire in your car? Why, were you expecting to get a flat on the way here? You also carry a cell phone everywhere you go, so the worst that could possibly happen to you if you have a flat and don't have a spare tire is to suffer some inconvenience and the loss of time. What's the worst that can happen to you if you genuinely need a gun but don't have one?"


* I never carry just a gun. It's always at least two.

** "Walk everywhere with peace in your heart, violence in your hands, and a plan of action in your mind."~Michael Kurchina

[almostgone]

Beetle and AG, thank you VERY much. And Beetle I had absolutely NO problem with your initial answer. I want to thank you for taking ANY time out to answer such a rookie question. That last post, holly crap, it helped TREMENDOUSLY!

I’m hesitant to go to a store currently, because I’m guessing that they have minimal time for a gazillion questions, when there is a line going down the block. I believe we have a few stores still open. I also checked out FFL dealers in the area and there are more than a few and I believe they indicated they also deal in hand guns. I’ve shot hand guns a few times, but wouldn’t be able to mention the exact type only that they were semi-automatics and way back when, when Dirty Harry movies were still the shit, tried out a friends 44 magnum.

I know to many of you out there this will sound strange, but this is for the house (not for the car or to carry, not yet at least) and the wife is a strong anti-gun advocate. She more than understands my position, but also for those in long relationships know that sometimes you must compromise. I know it’s not mega masculine, but it’s the reality that’s allowed 35 years of co-existence.

I will likely go the hand gun route, because she won’t have to see it. I fully comprehend your argument for a shot-gun and fully agree, my usage is for one thing only and that’s to kill the person that is in my house without my consent. I will definitely cross all my t’s and dot my i’s regarding any regulations and plan on a shit-load of training. I know an ex Los Angeles sheriff that will be my first go-to person, but I know out here, the shooting range I’ve gone to have private instructors.

I too was thinking a revolver for simplicity, was looking at the 38 but also was considering a 32 as well. However, ASAP, I’d like to get a silencer/suppressor so IF I were to use it, won’t blow out our ears. They didn’t seem that available for revolvers however. I looked at some articles regarding laser sites, clearly see how much of an assist they could provide but saw some disagreement regarding whether they reveal your position.

Bullet wise, my concern would be missed shots exiting the exterior walls or windows. Believe it or not, I’d rather not and I know my wife would definitely not, want to harm a neighbor with an errant bullet (even though that is a remote chance) & would prefer to take our chances instead. If I had kids, I’m sure I’d think differently.

I have some thinking to do, some further discussions to have with my wife, but feel this will happen. I actually enjoyed shooting, will have a ton of time once retired soon, so it’s a win-win.

I’m going to make some calls, but the information you gave me was incredibly helpful and completely understood. Once again your initial response was completely fine & I didn’t think badly of it in the slightest. I respect and appreciate the time and thought you put into this. I was a physical therapist, my wife and friends are, if there is ever anything we could offer advice wise in that regard, it would be our pleasure!

There's too much gap between the cylinder and the barrel of a revolver, Prox. ( although Beetle did post an obscure design, maybe Nagant 1895, recently in which the cylinder was forced up against the barrel, if my old brain recalls correctly).
With a semi, the majority of the gasses are trapped by the case mouth of the ammo sealing the chamber.

Honestly for simplicity of use and getting the job done, the Taurus Judge Beetlegeuse mentioned is a good choice. You have option .,.45 Colt ( don't confuse this with the .45 ACP and the .410. Here's a YouTube on the Winchester PDX-1 ammo.

https://youtu.be/Ff-BizqTaOA

I don't know how it is out there, but we have several dealers in my area that have an on-site range.

[Proximal]

TY AG!

Beetle, TY for the last post, I agree with your logic completely!

What are your feelings on the laser site?

I’ve got some homework to do.

[Beetlegeuse]

... What are your feelings on the laser site?...

Lasers make the firearm a more effective tool in certain applications but it's not really a shortcut for the novice shooter because it does nothing to contribute to you growing the single skill that most contributes to your precision in handgun shooting. It aids you in precision of aiming but aiming is not where the rubber meets the road.

Rob Leatham is the most accomplished pistol shooter of my lifetime. He has won the International Practical Shooting Confederation's US championship eight times and won the IPSC world champion six times. So it's safe (IMHO) to assume that he knows his shit.



This is harder than Leatham lets on because there isn't much on your body that you can move in isolation, without a corresponding "sympathetic" movement of something else (try looking in the mirror and winking at yourself and see if the opposite eyebrow doesn't also move).

Try this test. Make a gun with your hand like you did when you were a kid with your trigger finger as the barrel. Squeeze the three lower fingers so you can feel the pressure against your palm (this simulates gripping a handgun). Now crook your trigger finger like you would to put it in contact with the trigger. Keep it crooked and simulate rapidly pulling trigger several times. And as you do, watch what your middle finger is doing. Chances are, your middle finger moves ever so slightly every time your trigger finger does. And when your middle finger (or any of the others) moves as your booger hook squeezes the trigger, it disturbs your sight alignment.



Okay, that's somewhat hyperbolic because there's a second part to the problem. For safety's sake, the trigger pull of most handguns is 5-6 pounds. That's a fair bit of force to be asking of a single finger, especially when you're expecting the entire rest of the hand to remain perfectly motionless as the trigger finger applies it.

That's the single most important skill for any handgun shooter to master. To squeeze the trigger without anything else in the hand moving and without disturbing your sight alignment. Unless and until you can train your hand to do that, ... well, ... you heard Rob. "It's all bull#$*&!"

That's why shooters feel compelled to test the trigger on any handgun they're checking out. Because a smooth trigger pull with a consistent break point is easier to manipulate correctly than a gritty trigger with a sloppy break point. And a trigger pull that's slicker than deer guts on a doorknob is a testament to the skill of the gunsmith who tuned it.


So your next question should be, "How do I train to do that?" The simplest way is dry-firing. "Shoot" your gun with no ammunition in it. If you've got a gazillion dollars to spend on ammunition and a shooting range in your basement, sure, live fire is great. But it's less punishing and (not to mention) cheaper to test the qualities of your trigger pull by dry firing. Watch your sights for the slightest hint of movement against the background and be scrupulously critical of your results. Because popular myth to the contrary notwithstanding, practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Practice it wrong from now 'till kingdom come and you won't gain a damn thing except callouses on your trigger finger.

There's a lot of argy-bargy about the danger of damaging a firearm by dry-firing because it wasn't necessarily engineered to endure the stresses that come from the firing pin (or striker) not hitting anything. But there aren't many modern firearms that you put at risk from the habit. Just to be on the safe side, check the manufacturer's recommendation.

If a gun shouldn't be (or you just don't want to dry-fire it), use snap caps. Snap caps are a plastic mock-up of a cartridge that you use in place of live ammunition. That way the firing pin (or striker) has something solid to land on, so there's no unplanned stresses occurring. But snap caps are a pain in the ass with an automatic because you have to keep picking the damn things up off the groud (but it is a good way to practice catching a spent casing in out of the air). Revolvers, OTOH, the same snap caps just keep going 'round and 'round. (advantage: wheel gun)

They also make laser-aided indoor targets so you can dry-fire and test your trigger control with electronic scoring. I'm researching them right now thinking it might be a cost-effective way to keep my skills up in the face of soaring ammunition costs.

I dry fire the hell out of Glocks and such, the striker-fired plastic wunder-guns. Especially if I have a sub-par performance at the range, I'll sit and dry-fire until my hands are numb from repeatedly cycling the slide by hand. But I still have qualms about dry-firing anything with a hammer on it. If I'm checking out another guy's hammer-fired pistol, like a 1911 or a Beretta 92, I'll cock the hammer and put the thumb of my weak hand between the hammer and the frame, then test the trigger and drop the hammer on my own thumb. Purely as a courtesy.

Once you find yourself communing with other gun guys, especially at a shooting range, you'll find there's a whole new etiquette to learn. Like if another guy has the generosity to allow you to handle his firearm, treat it with every possible kindness. Don't fire it (dry or otherwise) without first receiving the owner's expressed permission.

That's part of what safe gun handling is. Etiquette. Some things aren't done just for safety -- which makes you a good neighbor to the guys around you -- you're also making a display of the fact that you're practicing safe gun handling.

And I have seen that etiquette evolve over the course of my lifetime, as our awareness of people's limitless capacity to do something stupid has grown. For most of my life the phrase you'd hear range safety officers barking is "finger straight and off the trigger."

Logical enough, right? If you finger is straight and off the trigger, you can't possibly pull the trigger (or can you?). Here's a perfect example of "straight and off the trigger":



But in the human creature's endless pursuit of expanding the boundaries of stupidity, "straight and off the trigger" has proved to provide too small a margin of safety. So now they've added "and clear of the trigger guard." So here's what "straight and off the trigger and clear of the trigger guard" looks like:



The difference is obvious, yes? The guy in the first pic is 100% perfectly safe. The guy in the second pic is not only 100% safe, he's demonstrating as much to the greater world to remove all doubt. Not only is his finger straight and off the trigger, he is showing that there's no hidden sixth finger secretly in contact with the trigger.

This is not unlike what happens at the end of a shooting relay (on a managed gun range) but before the range safety officer in charge calls the range "Cold!" An RSO will walk down the firing line, looking at each weapon to confirm it has been cleared. If he isn't 100% certain, that RSO will command the shooter, "Show Clear!" And the shooter is obligated to show to the RSO that the breech is open and the chamber is empty on his weapon. Once all weapons on his side of the firing line are verified clear, the RSO will shout to the RSO in charge, "Right is Clear!" Or left, as the case may be. At which pint the RSO in charge will announce to the effect, "The range is now Cold! Do Not touch or handle any firearms. You may go down range to check your targets...."

Because when you've got a bunch of relative strangers standing cheek by jowl and all of them are deadly armed, there is no such thing as "too careful." Adding in the "and clear of the trigger guard" to the end of it makes it just that little bit safer.

Another fairly recent adaptation is Position Sul. This originated in Brazil and "Sul" is Portuguese for south. The objective of Position Sul is to demonstrate that even if you deliberately pulled the trigger, the bullet would go "south" and the only thing that would be in danger is your own feet. This is a textbook execution of Position Sul:



It's potentially safer than "at the ready" positions like a "tactical low port" because the danger of you muzzle-sweeping someone else does not increase even if you turn 360°. IMHO someone using Position Sul is an indicator that they are a trustworthy firearm handler (not a guarantee, but an indicator).

Notice that the thumb and index fingers on both of the shooter's hands in that photo are held in the shape of the letter "L." That's why you'll sometimes hear Position Sul referred to as "forming the El." It's also adaptable for the carry of a long gun, particularly one with a pistol grip.

Everything in shooting is so interconnected that even a simple question like "how about lasers?" is opening a whole 'nother can of worms. The short answer is, a laser can be beneficial but it's likely to become a crutch if you introduce it before you have learned decent trigger control. As you gain experience (and with it, become critically objective of your abilities), you will know when the added aiming precision that a laser can provide might improve your effective use of a firearm, and with it also improve your safety.

...I’ve got some homework to do.

Don't feel pregnant. It'll soon be 60 years that I've been shooting and I haven't even figured out how much there is that I don't know. I think the volume of knowledge about firearms and shooting is like the universe itself, not only expanding, the rate it's expanding at is accelerating.

[almostgone]

^^^^ I've looked at some of the homemade DIY Laserlyte type devices on YouTube myself, but never have invested the energy to do it ( yet). Maybe one day I'll get around to rigging one up.

I did snag some Laserlyte cartridges of several calibers and have a B-29 target hung up on my shop wall and it works pretty good; like you said there's no use blowing through 1000s of rounds if your trigger control is weak. My shop is only 40' long, so that's gracious plenty of distance. Usually I spend most of my time at a 10m line I have taped off on the floor. Even focused on the front sight, it's easy to pick up the POI of the laser dot on the target. On the other hand, my wife enjoys the days we go to the range. She says she gets satisfaction from punching hole in the paper.

Edit: I am using a DA/SA semi the vast majority of the time which simplifies things.

Also, what Beetle mentioned about firearm etiquette will not only keep everyone safe, it will probably gain you some friends at that range, particularly from the more proficient shooters.

We were always taught that when you are handed a firearm, the first thing you always do is face a safe direction and perform an administrative check to determine the weapon's status. That practice has served me well for over 37 years.

[almostgone]

Just as an afterthought, Prox, if you did decide to go with the Laserlyte type cartridge for training, a paper plate or a cardboard cutout should suffice. A typical self-defense situation generally won't be a long range shot.

Make sure you familiarize yourself with your state's laws. I don't know if California has the "castle doctrine", but I'm almost positive they aren't a "stand your ground state".

[Proximal]

You 2 guys are beyond kind & informative, TY!

One particular thing that jumped out at me. Practice, but perfect practice. I know this sounds lame, but I possessed a beautiful, technically flawless jump shot in basketball, that took me multiple years of dedicated of work to achieve. I understand, respect & more importantly see and appreciate the artistry and beauty of the ability to approach technical perfection, yet understand it never is attainable, which means continued dedication & practice.

Robert DeNiro saying “this is this” in the “Deer Hunter”. How many truly understood that line? EVERYTHING is THIS, no matter what that particular THIS is. Dedication to that particular “THIS”. It’s so pure, so beautiful. So sorry for getting philosophical.

That dedication to the “art” or that skill is what life is about. I could differentiate every movement involved including the feeling of the ball leaving my fingertips. I knew from that second that the shot was a successful one. It was the closest I’ve been to God. It was the attempt at perfection and maybe, just maybe reaching it for that moment.

Etiquette? Please, I grew up with it, and very regrettably it is a lost common denominator in today’s world. What an incredible shame!

Having hard talks with my wife. I really was disturbed, I previously assumed incorrectly that a hollow point or some other bullet would be stopped by a wall. That doesn’t seem to be the case and even though I’m not in an apartment, our homes are close here. I’m sure I’m an outlier here, which makes me all the more appreciative of your assistance and consideration.

[Proximal]

Just as an afterthought, Prox, if you did decide to go with the Laserlyte type cartridge for training, a paper plate or a cardboard cutout should suffice. A typical self-defense situation generally won't be a long range shot.

Make sure you familiarize yourself with your state's laws. I don't know if California has the "castle doctrine", but I'm almost positive they aren't a "stand your ground state".

If I go this route, for me, it has to be completely legal. I believe the only law I’ve rationalized breaking is what I participate in here.

Although, lol, our streets were empty yesterday. Hopped on the freeway and did an effortless 105 with my beast. It was truly built for speed. Hell, the steering wheel blocks my speedometer, I only go by feel, had to make an extra effort to see.

[almostgone]

If I go this route, for me, it has to be completely legal. I believe the only law I’ve rationalized breaking is what I participate in here.

Although, lol, our streets were empty yesterday. Hopped on the freeway and did an effortless 105 with my beast. It was truly built for speed. Hell, the steering wheel blocks my speedometer, I only go by feel, had to make an extra effort to see.

Absolutely, and I may be mistaken about the "stand your ground" law in California. I always review SC CWP and firearm regs and states with reciprocity annually.

If you go through your state's CCW class, they should definitely cover those bases thoroughly.

If overpenetration is your worry, Glaser safety slugs or other brands of frangible ammo may be your answer, but I'll defer to Beetlegeuse on that.

I've shot a few rounds of Glazers a few years after they first came out, but have never personally shot them into gelatin or say, 2 pieces of sheetrock separated by a stud to simulate a housing environment.

IF I recall correctly, Glazers were introduced as a means to neutralize a threat without risk of overpenetration?

[Beetlegeuse]

There are no end of videos on YouTube demonstrating the potential for overpenetration of many different types of ammunition, rifle, pistol and shotgun. Those done by the guy at Demolition Ranch are my favorites because he's low-key but wicked-smart, and funnier than all get-out. Just don't let your wife catch you watching them. If she sees how many walls even a buckshot round will go screaming through, she'll freak.

A bullet's sole function in life is to go through stuff and it's hard to teach 'em restraint. They make projectiles that are designed to reduce the risk from overpenetration but the problem with them is none of them kill as well as the other. If they did, you'd see them in more widespread use in the law enforcement community, but you don't. In general they're called "frangible" rounds, meaning the bullet breaks up on it's first impact. So if you miss completely, the first layer of sheetrock shatters the bullet, and only tiny fragments strike the sheetrock on the opposite side.

The problem with that "modus operandi" is that too little penetration will get you killed. That was the upshot the FBI's study after the disastrous 1986 Miami shoot-out when eight FBI agents armed only with handguns faced down two perps armed with long guns and handguns. The perps killed two agents and seriously wounded three more before being put down (one shot six times and the other 12). Excerpted from the report, authored by Special Agent Urey Patrick:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."

My touchstone on all things ammunition is Dr. Gary Roberts, dental surgeon and retired US Navy officer, known as DocGKR in various gun forums. Doc Roberts has spent decades amassing GSW data from ERs and morgues and has been commissioned to do numerous studies and tests on the subject by both DoD and federal law enforcement agencies. I have never come across anyone who is visible on the Internet who comes anywhere near matching the depth and breadth of his knowledge, and he shares all that information with the rest of us, free of charge. Several gun sites maintain a copy of his recommended duty and self-defense rounds. Doc Roberts' recommendations all come from his personal analysis of flesh and blood results so I find it laughable that shooters would even think about taking the advice of some gun blogger who came to his decision from shooting 10 rounds into some ballistic gelatin. And on the subject of frangible ammunition (which he considers only suitable for training use) he wrote:

...[F]rangible training ammunition is NEVER a good choice for duty/self-defense use! Anyone recommending frangible training ammunition for duty/self-defense purposes is grossly misinformed or is ignorantly repeating specious gunrag myth and should be disregarded as a source of valid information...

Thus far it has proved impossible to train a bullet to penetrate 12 inches through human flesh but not go through eight or 10 layers of gypsum board. All the more reason to sharpen your marksmanship. Because a self-defense round that won't incapacitate (or kill) from a reasonably well placed shot for lack of penetration isn't worth what you paid for it.

[almostgone]

Nice reference material regarding frangible ammo. I've never been a fan due to some with being filled with #12 shot in some cases a combo of shot and a lightweight "pellet" in other cases.

However, with no real experience or reliable reference regarding penetration/ terminal effectiveness I couldn't give them up a thumbs up or thumbs down/ recommend them.

I generally use Speer GoldDot , XTPs, Ranger SXTs with almost the same in my bullet stash for reloading. I did see some promise from Magtech solid copper hollow points in .45acp +P 165gr vs. an old turkey that had gotten freezer burnt that I thawed out and wrapped in of my dilapidated denim welding shirt and then an old sweatshirt that had served it's purpose.

I do hate that the PMC Starfire ammo was never loaded as hot as Tom Burczynski had intended. I pulled one years ago and milled the bullet to just above centerline and I was impressed with the geometry.

I've noticed the Lehigh fluted ammo that seems to be popular, but am waiting to see if they are the latest whiz-bang thing out there or are truly superior to the premium hollow points.


....and I'm deviating from the original scope of the post....oops. Sorry, gents.

[GearHeaded]

You 2 guys are beyond kind & informative, TY!

One particular thing that jumped out at me. Practice, but perfect practice. I know this sounds lame, but I possessed a beautiful, technically flawless jump shot in basketball, that took me multiple years of dedicated of work to achieve. I understand, respect & more importantly see and appreciate the artistry and beauty of the ability to approach technical perfection, yet understand it never is attainable, which means continued dedication & practice.

Robert DeNiro saying “this is this” in the “Deer Hunter”. How many truly understood that line? EVERYTHING is THIS, no matter what that particular THIS is. Dedication to that particular “THIS”. It’s so pure, so beautiful. So sorry for getting philosophical.

That dedication to the “art” or that skill is what life is about. I could differentiate every movement involved including the feeling of the ball leaving my fingertips. I knew from that second that the shot was a successful one. It was the closest I’ve been to God. It was the attempt at perfection and maybe, just maybe reaching it for that moment.

Etiquette? Please, I grew up with it, and very regrettably it is a lost common denominator in today’s world. What an incredible shame!

Having hard talks with my wife. I really was disturbed, I previously assumed incorrectly that a hollow point or some other bullet would be stopped by a wall. That doesn’t seem to be the case and even though I’m not in an apartment, our homes are close here. I’m sure I’m an outlier here, which makes me all the more appreciative of your assistance and consideration.

agree with the 'perfect practice' makes perfect mindset rather then just 'practice makes perfect'..

took me lots of time and perfect practice to be able to unload 15 rounds from my Glock at 15 feet and group in one hole smaller then a spoon..

you know what else it took . lots of ammo, which costs lots of $ , and more money spent on a full time gun range membership.

its a time and money investment to get good with your gun. but its worth it