Do you have any questions about the Bible?

**WEBB** · 11-09-2007, 12:19 PM

while i agree 110% that he was and is the like no other, if the date the world uses is wrong and even the one the bible uses then doesnt it kinda make you wonder what else was made up to fit in....i mean if we use dec 25th just cause it fits the story, then what else do we believe that was just made up to fit....and why use that day, not the actuall one...

**magic32** · 11-09-2007, 12:36 PM

Time.

Originally Posted by WEBB

while i agree 110% that he was and is the like no other, if the date the world uses is wrong and even the one the bible uses then doesnt it kinda make you wonder what else was made up to fit in....i mean if we use dec 25th just cause it fits the story, then what else do we believe that was just made up to fit....
Whoa there big guy!

That's not what I'm saying at all. A memorial date for something that DEFINITELY happened is one thing, but fabricating information to fit other things is quite different. For example, you adopt and orphan with limited records. Well we know the child was born so you can celebrate the B-day on any of 365 days...IT SIMPLY DOESN'T MATTER.

and why use that day, not the actuall one...
The likely reason is the same as my example, they simply didn't know for sure. The holiday was likely instituted well after His lifetime, and even then the penalty for being a Christian would have been quite high. So even if a distant relative did have this information (and for the record I only know very few of my non-nuclear relatives B-days), it's not something that they would have broadcasted, less the lions have an extra meal.

**WEBB** · 11-09-2007, 12:44 PM

good enough for me man...thanks

**helium3** · 11-09-2007, 01:15 PM

f@@k religion, causes nothing but problems, ok so people cause the problems whatever.

its just another way to control the masses, i mean come on who wrote the f,ing bible or any other religios text for that matter? a MAN! who sees the floors?

**WEBB** · 11-09-2007, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by helium3

f@@k religion, causes nothing but problems, ok so people cause the problems whatever.

its just another way to control the masses, i mean come on who wrote the f,ing bible or any other religios text for that matter? a MAN! who sees the floors?

UMMMMM....WTF does that mean...

**magic32** · 11-09-2007, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by WEBB

UMMMMM....WTF does that mean...

Come on Webb, you've seen it before, that's the cop out, scapegoat mentality.

Blame the Bible on men, and relieve yourself of any accountability.

Bills always come due...always!

**helium3** · 11-10-2007, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by WEBB

UMMMMM....WTF does that mean...

it means that both the bible and the quran were written by men. men/women have motives hidden agendas and also have a tendency to exaggerate or alter facts to suit their ideas and beliefs.

i mean lets get real, i come upto you with a book that ive written describing in ecsquisite detail the wonders of my new found religion and i fully believe what im telling you as i recieved the message directly from god. and i tell you this is the new bible according to god. you would tell me to f##k off! why believe in what some dude has written down in the past.

each to their own i guess.

**unclemoney** · 11-10-2007, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by helium3

it means that both the bible and the quran were written by men. men/women have motives hidden agendas and also have a tendency to exaggerate or alter facts to suit their ideas and beliefs.

i mean lets get real, i come upto you with a book that ive written describing in ecsquisite detail the wonders of my new found religion and i fully believe what im telling you as i recieved the message directly from god. and i tell you this is the new bible according to god. you would tell me to f##k off! why believe in what some dude has written down in the past.

each to their own i guess.

And bingo was his name-o

**Auss11e** · 11-10-2007, 07:18 AM

Anyone seen those witty little messages they put on the boards out front of churches?
One that comes to mind is "Seven days without God makes one WEAK"

**Tock** · 11-10-2007, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by magic32

I believe that I responded to every viable question, yet somehow you claim that I missed "a few", meaning what...three or four questions? If that is indeed the case and not just figurative speaking or exaggeration, please cite them now and I'll endeavor to reply. Please list the post #'s.

I can't be bothered, really. You might want to go back and look at the Old Testament passages I questioned (did they actually happen the way the Bible says they did?), but there's no point to it, really.
Biblical literalists always come up with some far-fetched rationalization to explain how impossible things could happen, because to admit that what the Bible says is not literally true would require theological adjustments that they are not prepared to make.

**magic32** · 11-10-2007, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

I can't be bothered, really.

Possibly the best thing you've ever said...still one wonders, why you keep stopping in?

You're apparently haven't read this thread, but thanks for not bothering as it's obviously not for you!

Literal: Thou shall not kill.
Allegorical: Having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

**Psychotron** · 11-11-2007, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by magic32

If my perception was wrong, and again it was based on what was asked as well as certain comments within the other thread, then I stand corrected. As long as someone is seeking knowledge, I have no problem extending the little that I have, if it'll help them.

Understandable. Most of my questions stem partially from what I run into, and when I seek answers else where that arent satisfactory that end up cropping up questions regarding other things written. Don't mistake your efforts, as you have already answered questions which helped me tremendously last week. I go through contorted weeks of faith due to my inability to transpose what I read and what I see.

**Logan13** · 11-11-2007, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

Please permit me to answer ANY questions from a Biblical perspective.
Of course there will always be scoffers, but hopefully those who wish to can have a respectful dialogue.

COMMON QUESTIONS:

Why is the Bible so intolerant of other religions, or why can’t there be many ways to Heaven?
Why do Christians claim Christ was God (father, SON, Holy Spirit) when He never actually said that in the Bible?
Is divorce permitted or not?
Does God keep the scorecard of your life, or what determines whether or not you get into Heaven?
Is it wrong to eat pork?
The Bible is supposed to be the Word of God and therefore infallible, so what about all the contradictions?
How can a loving God allow senseless death such as school bus accidents, Columbine, 911, Katrina, etc.?
Where is Heaven? Doesn’t science prove that space is above us, not Haven?
How can you believe in a God in light of science, aren't they in opposition?
How do you explain ghosts or aliens?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
Can baptism cleanse you of sin?

is it true that Tock is going to hell?

**Amorphic** · 11-11-2007, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

is it true that Tock is going to hell?

**Titleist** · 11-11-2007, 07:51 PM

First off, I was raised in a Christian household, and am a Christian today. I plan on raising my children (when I have them) the same way.

I haven't been going to church for a bit now, because of a few reasons that aren't particularly good excuses. My old pastor, who helped me through some hard times, left the church to minister at another that is closer to his family. The interim pastor is a weirdo, IMO. I get bad vibes from him, although I don't guess I've given him a chance. I won't be a member anywhere else, because I like the members/elders at my church, plus most of my family goes there.

One area that I will admit I am not learned in is the bible- not by a longshot. Eventually, when I have more time, I plan on studying it, but I'm not sure exactly when I'll be able to.

You may not be able to answer my questions, which is understandable. If you've previously answered any of these, I apologize. I haven't read through the thread.

- What determines who goes to Heaven or Hell? I mean, is suicide the only unforgivable sin? I definintely sin, as we all do, but where does God draw the line?

- Furthermore, what is Heaven or Hell like? I think my idea of Heaven may conflict with God's. When we go to one or the other, our soul leaves the body, but our body remains on Earth- How can I play golf and work out (two pieces of my Heaven) without any arms or legs? I hope I at least keep my good looks....

- I think it is said somewhere in the bible that everyone God creates is perfect, or something of that nature. I can't remember the exact wording. How is this possible when people are born mentally handicapped all the time?

- Not much to this one, but why does God take "good" people? This is one of the things that really pisses me off, to be honest. About a week ago, a girl I knew was killed in a car crash. She was a beautiful 23 year old mother. She was also 6 months pregnant. Did I mention her sister was killed one year ago in a car crash? All of this is going on while the scum of the Earth is living, and doing what they want.

Like I said, there is a lot that I don't understand.

**magic32** · 11-11-2007, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Psychotron

Understandable. Most of my questions stem partially from what I run into, and when I seek answers else where that arent satisfactory that end up cropping up questions regarding other things written. Don't mistake your efforts, as you have already answered questions which helped me tremendously last week. I go through contorted weeks of faith due to my inability to transpose what I read and what I see.

Acknowledged.
Glad to have helped.
Feel free to ask anything you need.

**magic32** · 11-11-2007, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

is it true that Tock is going to hell?

Straight to Hell on the H -Train, he might even get to ride next Satan in the conductor's cabin with a little monogrammed cap. His chances of Heaven are less than zero. If he did show up at the gate St. Peter would ask his name, flip through a few pages, look over his life, then point the Hellavator which only has one button with a flamed sticker on it, beside an red down arrow.

I'm kidding...that's between Tock and God.

Jesus made it quite clear that regardless of religious tolerance, polytheism, good samaritanism, etc. that He was the ONLY way to Heaven/God:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This theme reverberates throughout the scriptures:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

AND IT FOR THIS REASON, THAT MERELY BELIEVING IN A GOD , CREATOR, DIVINE BEING, GREAT SPIRIT, ETC. IS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!

**magic32** · 11-12-2007, 11:04 AM

Your candor is refreshing...the honesty bulges through each question.

Originally Posted by Titleist

First off, I was raised in a Christian household, and am a Christian today. I plan on raising my children (when I have them) the same way.

I haven't been going to church for a bit now, because of a few reasons that aren't particularly good excuses. My old pastor, who helped me through some hard times, left the church to minister at another that is closer to his family. The interim pastor is a weirdo, IMO. I get bad vibes from him, although I don't guess I've given him a chance. I won't be a member anywhere else, because I like the members/elders at my church, plus most of my family goes there.

One area that I will admit I am not learned in is the bible- not by a longshot. Eventually, when I have more time, I plan on studying it, but I'm not sure exactly when I'll be able to.

You may not be able to answer my questions, which is understandable. If you've previously answered any of these, I apologize. I haven't read through the thread.

- What determines who goes to Heaven or Hell?
Biblically speaking (which is what this tread is about), the determinant is whether or not you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, and died for your sins.

I mean, is suicide the only unforgivable sin?
Contrary to many religions there is NO unforgivable/unpardonable sin...Christ died for ALL sins.
This philosophy stems from a couple of scriptures namely:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

However, they refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit or that third person of God which comes to dwell within men. Now to blaspheme means to speak of or address with irreverence, or to revile or abuse. But notice how the text clearly delineates the term “in danger of eternal damnation”. This is simply another way of taking God’s name in vain, which as with all sins puts one’s immortal soul in jeopardy.

Suicide is unique among sins, because it (depending on the form it takes) permits very little time for repentance which makes it easier to die in/during your sin. Some see this sin as greater, because life comes from God and He reserves the right to extinguish it. Although the latter part is true, and contrary to the many religious beliefs in the degrees of sin, God sees it all the same with regard to falling short of perfection...a pass/fail if you will.

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin...

I definitely sin, as we all do, but where does God draw the line?
That’s the most important question a man could ever ask, still many people struggle with this, and develop different rationales for their own cases of righteousness. But God clearly states that He doesn’t draw a line. There is no line because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, requiring a perfect sacrifice for redemption.
READ POST #211, but in short...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

ONLY by Christ can we receive redemption, as His blood covers our sins…thus when God looks at us (in sin) He sees only Christ’s blood covering!

- Furthermore, what is Heaven or Hell like? I think my idea of Heaven may conflict with God's.
That depends on your opinion, the scriptures are peppered with minor descriptions, but here is one of the majors.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

Unlike Dante’s “Inferno" and its seven circles, the Bible’s Hell is always spoken of as fiery hot, yet dark due to the COMPLETE absence of God whose glory is light, and always as unbearably painful:

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

When we go to one or the other, our soul leaves the body, but our body remains on Earth- How can I play golf and work out (two pieces of my Heaven) without any arms or legs? I hope I at least keep my good looks....

God doesn't explain the "How's" here posssibly because of our limited ability to comprehend. Just look at all those who struggle with a triune God who is a complete being, yet three separate persons Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Anyway, the Bible often speaks of our spiritual bodies (with appendages) as being renewed ones, for how could a physical body exist in a spiritual plain such as Heaven. Sure, you’ll still have your debonair appearance, but in an incorruptible new body.

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

- I think it is said somewhere in the bible that everyone God creates is perfect, or something of that nature. I can't remember the exact wording. How is this possible when people are born mentally handicapped all the time?
It’s true that God only makes perfection: man; animals; earth; Heaven; etc. But rather than create robots to that recite “I love you”, providing of no satisfaction for Him or us, He provided “Free Will”. After Adam’s disobedience (sin), the world was turned over to Satan (described as the Prince of this world, and the Prince of the air) and began to breakdown, literally. Sin and death in the world gave way to disease, pestilence, birth defects, etc.

In other words, isn't it possible for you to mold a perfect clay pot, that later with use becomes scratched, chipped and broken? Man was initially perfect, life and more specifically sin, chipped and broke him.
BE SURE TO READ POSTS #32 & 78

- Not much to this one, but why does God take "good" people? This is one of the things that really pisses me off, to be honest. About a week ago, a girl I knew was killed in a car crash. She was a beautiful 23 year old mother. She was also 6 months pregnant. Did I mention her sister was killed one year ago in a car crash? All of this is going on while the scum of the Earth is living, and doing what they want.

That is quite a sad story, but maybe a deeper understanding is in order.
Firstly, thinking God takes anyone is incorrect. Referring back to the fallen state of the world, depicted above, death happens as a result of sin.
DEFINITELY SEE POST #224 where this is explained.

Secondly, although this sinful world is subject to tragedy such as the ones you illustrated, earthly life is meant to end. We’re just passing through, some more swiftly than others.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Thirdly, for an immortal being (our spirit) created in God’s image, and with His spirit breathed into our nostrils, physical death is merely a phase of existence through which one passes into eternity.

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.

Elvis isn’t dead, he just went home.”
- Tommy Lee Jones, Men in Black

Like I said, there is a lot that I don't understand.

THE RED POSTS PROVIDE GREATER DETAIL.

**Titleist** · 11-12-2007, 02:37 PM

Thanks alot for taking the time to reply, Magic.

Obviously, the less we understand something, the more we will question it. I definitely have a deeper understanding of my questions now.

I understand that God can't really police the world, otherwise we wouldn't be "free" to do what we want. I guess it's just hard to see someone that is doing everything right pass on, while others are doing everything wrong and not being punished. In time I guess...

Again, thanks.

**midnight777** · 11-12-2007, 07:47 PM

very interesting thread.... to each his own. We all can admit there is a Greater Power out there. we will know some day...

**Tock** · 11-12-2007, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by midnight777

very interesting thread.... to each his own. We all can admit there is a Greater Power out there. we will know some day...

I'll betcha we won't (won't "know some day").
I'll betcha that once we die, that once our friends dig a hole and throw our corpse in it and cover us up with dirt, that all that will happen is that we decompose. And that'll be it.

Seems to me that is what happens to everything else that dies -- dogs, cats, rats, fish, plants, etc -- its immune system stops working and little bugs and bacteria make everything decompose.

Anyone have any evidence that anything other than that ever happens? Anyone have any evidence that such a thing as a "soul" exists? Can it be seen, measured, photographed? Do you know anyone who knows how to detect and measure a soul? Probably not. Yet, some folks seem to think they can tell you all about a thing that they haven't ever seen.

IMHO, these people who purport to know all about what happens to your soul, should be required to demonstrate the proof of what they say, the same way that anyone else who advertises a product or service does. Until they do, they are only "flim - flam" men. Snakeoil salesmen.

==========================

Sister Paula on Rev. Ted Haggard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT6NcjlpQPc

**magic32** · 11-12-2007, 09:20 PM

Welcome back Tock.
Just can't get this little thread out of your head huh?

-----------------------
So in your eyes, mankind is like the animals?
They merely live, die, and are no more.

What a sad, meaningless existence that must be!
----------------------
As for flim-flam men and snake oil salesmen Xerxes, Napoleon, Alexander, and Hitler all had extremely large contingencies.

But that Jesus character, WOW!
Let's see there's...

a holiday for His birth
a holiday for His death
a holiday for His resurrection
and the very measurement of time itself is based on Him...BC and AD

That's quite a salesman, good thing he didn't peddle used camels (the automobile equivalent).

**magic32** · 11-12-2007, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Titleist

Thanks alot for taking the time to reply, Magic.

Obviously, the less we understand something, the more we will question it. I definitely have a deeper understanding of my questions now.

I understand that God can't really police the world, otherwise we wouldn't be "free" to do what we want. I guess it's just hard to see someone that is doing everything right pass on, while others are doing everything wrong and not being punished. In time I guess...

Again, thanks.

No problem Title.
But as anyone who's ever pulled an all-nighter can attest, tomorrow always comes.
And bills always come due!

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Jer 36:31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.
Jer 44:29 And this [shall be] a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

**Tock** · 11-13-2007, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by magic32

So in your eyes, mankind is like the animals?

No, not like the animals. Mankind is an animal.

Originally Posted by magic32

They merely live, die, and are no more.

What a sad, meaningless existence that must be!

It's lots better than what you tell people -- that the vast majority of people who ever lived are going to roast in Hellfire for billions upon billions of ages, for having commited the sin of having an honest unbeleif.

Aside from that -- just because people "live, die, and are no more," that is certainly no reason to make up a fiction to console yourself for the disappointment of our short life span. Sure, it suc-s to die after 70 or 80 years. But since this is the only life we are ever going to get, that's why it's so important to make sure you live your life while you can, and not get tied up in some stupid religious fiction.

Originally Posted by magic32

As for flim-flam men and snake oil salesmen Xerxes, Napoleon, Alexander, and Hitler all had extremely large contingencies.

But that Jesus character, WOW!
Let's see there's...

a holiday for His birth
a holiday for His death
a holiday for His resurrection
and the very measurement of time itself is based on Him...BC and AD

That's quite a salesman, good thing he didn't peddle used camels (the automobile equivalent).

Nevertheless, most people on this planet are not Christian. And most people who do call themselves Christian are mostly ignorant of what the Bible says, what Jesus said, and what the tenants of their religious group's faith are. It's the rare Christian that can list more than 3 of the Ten Commandments, much less talk about who actually wrote the Bible, and when it was written. In short, few Christians know anything about what they beleive.
Theologians have widely differing views on just about everything connected with the Bible. Thousands of Christian denominations exist, from Presbyterians who beleive that once you're saved, you're always saved, no matter what you do -- to Christians who beleive that it's important to handle snakes to demonstrate your faith in God. Many theologians consider the Bible to be a work inspired by God, and many more do not agree. Some beleive in a literal Hell, many more do not. Some theologians (of several different Christian denominations) beleive that if you don't beleive the way they do, then you will go to Hell. Which one of them is, as they phrase it, "The One True Church?" Yours? Theirs? Someone else's?

The truth is, that the Christian religion, and its Bible, is one big fiction. Sure, there are some parts of the Bible that contain references to ancient historical places and events; but so what? Lots of contemporary fiction stories do, too. It doesn't make all of it true.

Even if most people on this planet were Christian, not a single fact about the Bible would change. The number of beleivers would not affect the truth of what they beleived. The fictions that fill the bible's pages would not change to historical truth. Noah's Ark still would not have held hundreds of thousands of animals plus 14 months of food and water; Kangaroos would still be unable to have swum across the ocean to live in Australia. And the Hebrews would still not have been led out of Egypt by Moses, and the Egyptian military would still not have been decimated, as the Bible says. And many pages of the Bible would still have been written by anonymous writers many years later than Conservative Fundamentalist Theologians would like to admit.

Nevertheless, beleive what you like. If you need a self-deception to help deal with the disappointment of mortality, I understand.

**magic32** · 11-13-2007, 08:55 AM

Isn't it interesting how you're compelled to return to this thread day after day? I know it pops up as a subscription, but even with the possibility to unsubscribe, still you come, like an unwilling moth to a bright light. You should the examine REASON for that.

Originally Posted by Tock

No, not like the animals. Mankind is an animal.

Let's drop the Bible for a moment and delve into Bio and Phl for a while. I'll counter your statement by going chicken and egg on this one. If man is an animal where did he come from? And please don't parrot the wildly preposterous theory of Evolution, because with NO smoking gun it simply crumbles. Anything that evolves requires time, and life necessitates even more, plus leaves well defined vestiges (traces). Cars for example clearly illustrate the Model T, the '67 Mustang, the '07 Lexus SUV, and everything in between.

Where, animal man, are ALL of your in betweens? We should be tripping over the plethora of missing link fossils between EACH species...since biological evolution is SOOOOO very slow we can't see it (which doesn't seem to bother you half as much as our inability to see God), as well as uncovering ENTIRE civilizations of Neanderthals from 30,000 to 200,000 years ago. Yet, all I see are a couple of poorly constructed hoaxes.

And this is how you come to me...speaking of truth?
My truth hinges not on blind sheep-like obedience, but on:

HISTORY...Christ was here and did what the Bible said, else He wouldn't be remembered and honored as He is. It chronologically notes KNOWN events and lives, paralleling them with specific rulers and lands.
SCIENCE...the Bible explains things long before science knew them to be so, and actually ridiculed it for, only to later prove and support them.
GEOGRAPHY...the Bible doesn't just spout information, it often gives precise locations that have been authenticated by archeological and anthropologic findings for which it was the sole source.
PROPHECY...it foretells numerous events, lives and actions that have indeed come true, and I'm not speaking of the so-called self-fulfilling prophecies or interpolated occurrences.
and FAITH.

I'd much rather believe in a Christ who certainly lived and did what no human could, a God created world (because TRULY there is no other alternative) and the 'Creation of Man' than flimsy falsehoods and wholly unsubstantiated theories cloaked in the guise of true science. So I'll keep reading the Bible, and leave to you such UTTERLY FANTASTIC beliefs like...

"You are an animal and share a common heritage with earthworms......."
-Biology, Visualizing Life, Johnson, Holt Rinehart Winston, 1994

And you speak of self-deception???

Originally Posted by Tock

Nevertheless, believe what you like. If you need a self-deception to help deal with the disappointment of mortality, I understand.

I speak of Satan deception.

Tock,

The Wachowski brothers said it well:

MORPHEUS
It is the world that has been pulled
over your eyes to blind you from
the truth.

NEO
What truth?

MORPHEUS
That you are a slave, Neo. Like
everyone else, you were born into
bondage, kept inside a prison that
you cannot smell, taste, or touch.
A prison for your mind.

Tock,

Stop taking the blue pill, and running from God.
Stop seeking the living amongst the dead.

He said that if you seek Him, He will not be far from you...so challenge that, put the onus back on God and let Him reveal Himself to you, or be a liar:

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

I've given you the message, and extended myself as a tool, so God Bless...

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

**Tock** · 11-13-2007, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

Isn't it interesting how you're compelled to return to this thread day after day? I know it pops up as a subscription, but even with the possibility to unsubscribe, still you come, like an unwilling moth to a bright light. You should the examine REASON for that.

Some people rubberneck around a wreck on the freeway. Me, I hang around threads like these. What can I say?

Originally Posted by magic32

And you speak of self-deception???
I speak of Satan deception.

That's another thing that nobody has ever seen. Satan.
People who study the history of the Bible for a living will tell you that the concept of Satan wasn't added to Hebrew religious thought until they were taken captive around 600 BC by the Assyrians. Their captors had what's called a "bipolar deity." In Zoroastrianism, the "good god" Ahura Mazda is constantly in a battle against the evil god "Ahriman." The good god wins over the evil god when people on Earth do good things, and the evil god wins over the good god when people do evil things.
Before the Hebrew captivity, they had only Jehovah to contend with. After the captivity, they incorporated the Zoroastrian notion of an evil god into their theology. It's sort of like the way contemporary Christian theology has changed over the past 100 years to incorporate new ideas, like glossolalia (from African religions and Voodoo), liberation theology in South America, and the $uccess theology on TV that encourages people to prove their faith in God by giving the preacher's church $$$, and in return God will give them a blessing exceeding the value of $$$ paid.

But back to my point . . .

Nobody's ever seen Satan -- except for on TV and movies, anyway. Lots of people swear that they know lots and lots about Satan, like Cotton Mather (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//mather.htm) who wrote stuff like
The Wonders of the Invisible World http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/mo...c/Bur4Nar.html

(an excerpt:
A Second Curiositie.

II. In all the Witchcraft which now Grievously Vexes us, I know not whether any thing be more Unaccountable, than the Trick which the Witches have, to render themselves and their Tools Invisible. Witchcraft seems to be the Skill of Applying the Plastic Spirit of the World139 unto some unlawful purposes, by means of a Confederacy with Evil Spirits. Yet one would wonder how the Evil Spirits themselves can do some things: especially at Invisibilizing of the Grossest Bodies. I can tell the Name of an Ancient Author, who pretends to show the way, how a man may come to walk about Invisible, and I can tell the Name of another Ancient Author, who pretends to Explode that way. But I will not speak too plainly, Lest I should unawares Poison some of my Readers,

Anyway, lots of supposedly knowledgable people supposedly knew enough about Satan and other related matters to preach about him, and to warn people about him. Their information came from heresay evidence. Turns out, it was all a bunch of BS.
I am certain you are similarly mistaken; you were duped by other well-meaning people who were similarly mistaken. It's not your fault; the deception is deeply entrenched and hard to overcome. I doubt you will ever be able to overcome it yourself, which is a pity.

Oh well.

**sonnygll** · 11-14-2007, 04:48 AM

I agree with Toc and a few other people who like logic and reason over superstition.

However, this whole thing brings a kind of moral dilemma.
Does the good of freeing someone from their guilt and superstition outweigh the evil of destroying their faith, which they have based their whole life on?

This would likely be a devastating blow to their mental well being.

For example I went on a date with a woman, and we agreed to part ways because she is very religious and I am not. I had talked about a bible verse where Jesus said some pretty bad stuff. She didn't believe it. I could have e-mailed her the verse later and shown her I was right. However it wouldn't do anything but cause her distress. So I opted no to send her the bible verse. Better to just let her think me a liar, and be happy in her ignorance.

However if the person will spread the religion meme on to others, or use it for any harmful purpose, then I would say crushing his faith is justified. As the lives of a few are more important then 1.

Of course in many cases religion is incurable. So unless the person shows signs of being open minded, so that you may help him to free himself, you should let it go. You will not cure a person like that, all you will do is cause him distress. Look up cognitive dissonance, and you will see part of what I mean.

I think Magic is deeply indoctrinated and his mind is closed on this subject. I also doubt he will have a great deal of negative impact on others due to religion. I therefore think chipping away at his faith causes him only harm. No good will come of this. We should just let him be.

As unbelievers we need to show Christians That we are very ethical and just, for no reason other than because it is the right way to be. No great reward, no horrific punishment. Just doing the greatest good for no other reason than being born knowing deep down that it is right.

**magic32** · 11-14-2007, 09:33 PM

Addressing the second part of your text first:

Originally Posted by sonnygll

we are very ethical and just...Just doing the greatest good for no other reason than being born knowing deep down that it is right.

The fundamental problem with what is stated above is simply that of a STANDARD, you don't have one! Without standards terms like "Very ethical" and "Greatest good" are meaningless. What you posit is no different than saying you're the "Greatest/Best" student without using a grading system, such an honor only belongs to the valedictorian because his/her grades were compared to all others. Sure you could say that you're a "Very" good basketball player, but where is the standard for comparision...all kindergarteners in your zip code? The local YMCA? The Streetball tour bus? The European MVP trophy? The college player of the year award? The NBA MVP trophy? What???

Without a barometer all comparison breaks down, and this is where you are with "Very ethical" and "Greatest good"...NOWHERE!

--------------------------------
It is apparent that you read very little if any of this thread, as your post makes me sound like a rambling religious fanatic rather than a rational mind that believes in Christ. The problem here is obviously your contention that reason and Christ are diametrically opposed.
Let's take a look below.

Originally Posted by sonnygll

I think Magic is deeply indoctrinated and his mind is closed on this subject. I also doubt he will have a great deal of negative impact on others due to religion. I therefore think chipping away at his faith causes him only harm. No good will come of this.

I'm EXTREMELY open-minded, but you're not putting anything into mine...PLEASE build a case for me.
In other words, GIVE me something to believe, or at least disprove what I do.

For example, I say there is a God and a Satan, you and Tock hold the opposite stance which puts us both in a pickle without proof.

GOD: Well, I tender that the world itself, which no scientist worth his lab coat would assert merely came into existence, is testimony of God as well as the life, death, and resurrection of Christ whom we KNOW lived because of Biblical and extra-Biblical account. Just as we know Harod and Ramseys did.
SATAN: By your account evil is a mere superstition...that sounds a lot like a brush off to me. How do you not acknowledge the abundance of NEGATIVE supernatural activity throughout the world from real witchcraft, voodoo and hoodoo to demonic possession (and please play the mental illness card, which could never do what people in these states have done).

For instance, (meaning I do NOT believe this), neither of us can TRULY use our physical senses to detect (much like God). How could you convince me otherwise? You'd indicate the signs, or the things that the mentally ill do that are inconsistent with those of healthy people. Now given enough inconsistencies, and especially if done prolifically (both measures used in the DSM IV), having no other definitive cause, I'd have to agree. For evaluation and diagnosis, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders primarily considers: the acts or behaviors; their intensity (mild, moderate, severe or profound); and frequency. Isn’t ODD that such scientific reasoning is not extended to Christ?

Jesus certainly existed making the ONLY REAL question, “Was He mere man, or God?” Well He claimed to be God which itself hints towards craziness…a la the God-Complex. But somehow He fulfills each criterion in grand fashion…I use the same logic here as above, let’s take a scientific look:
His actions and behaviors include clearly supernatural miracles.
The intensity of these miracles was profound healing the sick, diseased, blind, and lame including raising the dead.
Frequency exhibits great proficiency (never failed with a person), and astounding prolificacy (number of accounts are remarkable)

...the rest as they say is His-Story.

Sound reasonable? That only leaves one loose end…

The sole possible argument to the contrary is that of source information. Surely the protagonist of His own book will be made to into a hero. Even Matt Damon can be super agent in his own movie trilogy. So, as mentioned above, how do we KNOW without doubt that Harod and Ramseys truly existed and did what is credited them, or for that matter George Washington and Abe Lincoln? There is no photographical evidence of existence, or video footage of their acts as their lives predate such technology. But we safely TRUST in their existence and works because of collaborative multi-source accounts. So a fanatic as you described above, would be Biblically bound, whereas a reasoning man and seeker of truth would search for corroboration.

Are there any extra-Biblical records?

And if so, there should certainly be A LOT FOR SO GREAT A MAN/GOD! This is where evolution plummets, we can find dinosaurs but where are all these missing links (between species) and millions of years of evolving ape-like civilizations? Well they don’t exist but this is quietly overlooked…some science! But I digress, back to other accounts of Jesus, His works, followers, as well as signs that SUPPOSEDLY occurred during His death. Even a little research will reveal volumes...here's a start:

ANCIENT NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation)
-------------------------------
Julius Africanus, writing around 221 AD, found a reference in the writings of Thallus, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean around 52 AD, which dealt with the supernatural darkness that covered the land during Jesus's crucifixion:
-------------------------------

Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
-----------------------
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD):
"Because the Jews of Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city."
"After the great fire at Rome [during Nero's reign] ... Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief, led by one who did great miracles in all lands that could not be explained."
----------------------
Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD:
"[The Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." Pliny added that Christianity attracted persons of all societal ranks, all ages, both sexes, and from both the city and the country. Late in his letter to Emperor Trajan, Pliny refers to the teachings of Jesus and his followers as excessive and contagious superstition.
---------------------------
Emperor Trajan, in reply to Pliny:
"The method you have pursued, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those denounced to you as Christians is extremely proper. It is not possible to lay down any general rule which can be applied as the fixed standard in all cases of this nature. No search should be made for these people; when they are denounced and found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Informations without the accuser's name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age."
------------------------------
Emporer Hadrian (117-138 AD), in a letter to Minucius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul:
"I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be passed by without examination, so that these men may neither be harassed, nor opportunity of malicious proceedings be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly evince their charges against the Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not by mere petitions, and mere outcries against the Christians. For it is far more proper, if anyone would bring an accusation, that you should examine it." Hadrian further explained that if Christians were found guilty they should be judged "according to the heinousness of the crime." If the accusers were only slandering the believers, then those who inaccurately made the charges were to be punished.
--------------------------
The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD:
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."
[Another early reference in the Talmud speaks of five of Jesus's disciples and recounts their standing before judges who make individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. However, no actual deaths are recorded.]
------------------------------
Lucian, a second century Greek satirist:
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. ... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, who did truly and inexplicably disappear from the well guarded tomb…was He really God? All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." Lucian also reported that the Christians had "sacred writings" which were frequently read. When something affected them, "they spare no trouble, no expense."
------------------------------
Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."

GNOSTICS SOURCES

The Gospel of Truth, probably by Valentius, around 135-160 AD:
"For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son. When he had appeared instructing them about the Father. ... For he came by means of fleshly appearance." Other passages affirm that the Son of God came in the flesh and "the Word came into the midst. ... it became a body."
"Jesus, was patient in accepting sufferings. . . since he knows that his death is life for many. . . . he was nailed to a tree; he published the edict of the Father on the cross. ... He draws himself down to death through life. ... eternal clothes him. Having stripped himself of the perishable rags, he put on imperishability, which no one can possibly take away from him."
---------------------------------------
The Aprocryphon of John, probably by Saturninus, around 120-130 AD:
"It happened one day when John, the brother of James,--who are the sons of Zebedee--went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, `Where is your master whom you followed?' And he said to him, 'He has gone to the place from which he came.' The Pharisee said to him, 'This Nazarene deceived you with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.'"
---------------------------------
The Gospel of Thomas, probably from 140-200 AD:
Contain many references to and alleged quotations of Jesus.
--------------------------------
The Treatise On Resurrection, by uncertain author of the late second century, to Rheginos:
"The Lord ... existed in flesh and ... revealed himself as Son of God ... Now the Son of God, Rheginos, was Son of Man. He embraced them both, possessing the humanity and the divinity, so that on the one hand he might vanquish death through his being Son of God, and that on the other through the Son of Man the restoration to the Pleroma might occur; because he was originally from above, a seed of the Truth, before this structure of the cosmos had come into being."
"For we have known the Son of Man, and we have believed that he rose from among the dead. This is he of whom we say, 'He became the destruction of death, as he is a great one in whom they believe.' Great are those who believe."
"The Savior swallowed up death. ... He transformed himself into an imperishable Aeon and raised himself up, having swallowed the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way of our immortality."
"Do not think the resurrection is an illusion. It is no illusion, but it is truth. Indeed, it is more fitting to say that the world is an illusion, rather than the resurrection which has come into being through our Lord the Savior, Jesus Christ."
". . . already you have the resurrection ... why not consider yourself as risen and already brought to this?" Rheginos was thus encouraged not to "continue as if you are to die."
-----------------------------------

LOST WORKS QUOTED IN OTHER SOURCES

Acts of Pontius Pilate, reports sent from Pilate to Tiberius, referred to by Justin Martyr (150 AD):
"And the expression, 'They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate." Later Justin lists several healing miracles and asserts, "And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate."
-------------------------------
Phlegon, born about 80 AD, as reported by Origen (185-254 AD), mentions that Jesus made certain predictions which were all fulfilled.
--------------------------------

ANCIENT CHRISTIAN SOURCES
(extra-biblical)

Clement, elder of Rome, letter to the Corinthian church (95 AD):
"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."
--------------------------------
Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, letter to the Trallians (110-115 AD):
"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth; who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His Father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe on Him."
-------------------------------
Ignatius, letter to the Smyrneans (110-115 AD):
"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptised by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we--that is, of his most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection."
"For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, 'Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without body.' And straightway they touched him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Wherefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. And after His resurrection He ate with them and drank with them."
-------------------------------
Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians (110-115 AD):
"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate; for these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope."
-------------------------------
Quadratus, to Emperor Hadrian about 125 AD:
"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when He had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."
-------------------------------
Barnabas, written 130-138 AD:
"He must needs be manifested in the flesh. ... He preached teaching Israel and performing so many wonders and miracles, and He loved them exceedingly. ... He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel. ... But He Himself desired so to suffer; for it was necessary for Him to suffer on a tree."
---------------------------------
Justin Martyr, to Emperor Antoninus Pius about 150 AD:
After referring to Jesus's birth of a virgin in the town of Bethlehem, and that His physical line of descent came through the tribe of Judah and the family of Jesse, Justin wrote, "Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea."
"Accordingly, after He was crucified, even all His acquaintances forsook Him, having denied Him; and afterwards, when He had risen from the dead and appeared to them, and had taught them to read the prophecies in which all these things were foretold as coming to pass, and when they had seen Him ascending into heaven, and had believed, and had received power sent thence by Him upon them, and went to every race of men, they taught these things, and were called apostles."
----------------------------------
Justin Martyr, in Dialogue with Trypho, around 150 AD:
"For at the time of His birth, Magi who came from Arabia worshipped Him, coming first to Herod, who then was sovereign in your land."
"For when they crucified Him, driving in the nails, they pierced His hands and feet; and those who crucified Him parted His garments among themselves, each casting lots for what he chose to have, and receiving according to the decision of the lot."
"Christ said amongst you that He would give the sign of Jonah, exhorting you to repent of your wicked deeds at least after He rose again from the dead ... yet you not only have not repented, after you learned that He rose from the dead, but, as I said before, you have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that 'a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilean deceiver, whom we crucified, but His disciples stole Him by night from the tomb, where He was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that He has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven.'"
"For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."
-------------------------------

The real issue of the resurrection deals with its evidence. This evidence consists of the testimony of many people who stated that they had seen Jesus after His crucifixion and death. The same people who testified of the resurrection of Christ also gave up their social and economic security and put their lives on the line in order proclaim that Jesus had risen. Does it make any sense at all to say that they knew Jesus did not rise from the dead and had concocted an elaborate plan in order to deceive a great many people into believing that Jesus had risen? Why would they do that? Does it also make any sense that they would continue in this lie while being persecuted, ostracized from family and friends, beaten, imprisoned, and finally killed for what they believed?

It makes more sense to believe that their actions were consistent with their teaching. In other words, they taught about self-sacrifice, dedication to truth, love, peace, etc., and they based it all on the risen Lord. It was based upon the truth that they had seen.

**Tock** · 11-14-2007, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

I say there is a God and a Satan, you and Tock hold the opposite stance which puts us both in a pickle without proof.

Um, a "pickle without proof?" Not me.

You say, "Satan exists." How do we know this is true? I've never seen it, outside of Hollywood movies. Have you ever seen Satan? Talked to it? Got any photos?

Unless you can furnish evidence that Satan exists, why should anyone beleive you? This is the pickle you're in -- making statements without evidence to back them up.

Me, on the other hand, why should I have to prove that Satan does not exist? If I can't prove that Satan does not exist, does that mean that he does exist? Nope.

So, you're the one in the pickle, not me. You alleged Satan exists, not me. If you want to be taken seriously, you can supply the evidence.

**Tock** · 11-14-2007, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

Addressing the second part of your text first:

The fundamental problem with what is stated above is simply that of a STANDARD, you don't have one! Without standards terms like "Very ethical" and "Greatest good" are meaningless. What you posit is no different than saying you're the "Greatest/Best" student without using a grading system, such an honor only belongs to the valedictorian because his/her grades were compared to all others. Sure you could say that you're a "Very" good basketball player, but where is the standard for comparision...all kindergarteners in your zip code? The local YMCA? The Streetball tour bus? The European MVP trophy? The college player of the year award? The NBA MVP trophy? What???

Without a barometer all comparison breaks down, and this is where you are with "Very ethical" and "Greatest good"...NOWHERE!

I suppose you consider the Bible to be an appropriate ethical standard?

What do you think of the Bible when it says that people who violate these six of the Ten Commandments must be put to death? Is this an ethical standard for everyone to comply with?

7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Or do you agree with the Bible that heathens, engravers, cussers, sabbath breakers, and adulterers should be put to death?
IMHO, such a punishment is a bit extreme. Agree?

================================================== =======

You might be releived to know that lots of cultures have thrived without the "guidance" offered by the Bible.

American Indians did very well for thousands of years, until, of course, the arrival of the Christian "white man" who stole their land, gave them plagues, and forced them onto reservations. And ancient Greece survived for centuries, as did Phoenicia, Egypt, and India and China (for several thousands of years), and Japan.
Ancient Rome did rather well also, acquiring wealth and splendor, but its decline and fall matched the rise of the number of Christians in its territories.

So, it's quite evident that cultures can do quite well without the moral encumberance of the Bible. In fact, they can probably do much better.

**Tock** · 11-14-2007, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

Are there any extra-Biblical records?

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation)

Not so quick, mon ami. More than one version of Josephus' history exists. And here's the story behind that story:

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...ally_live.html

In the closing years of the first century, Josephus, the celebrated Jewish historian, wrote his famous work on "The Antiquities of the Jews." In this work, the historian made no mention of Christ, and for two hundred years after the death of Josephus, the name of Christ did not appear in his history. There were no printing presses in those days. Books were multiplied by being copied. It was, therefore, easy to add to or change what an author had written. The church felt that Josephus ought to recognize Christ, and the dead historian was made to do it. In the fourth century, a copy of "The Antiquities of the Jews" appeared, in which occurred this passage: "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Such is the celebrated reference to Christ in Josephus. A more brazen forgery was never perpetrated. For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen an Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is know to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage in his "Evangelical Demonstration," (Book III., p.124), in these words: "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
Everything demonstrates the spurious character of the passage. It is written in the style of Eusebius, and not in the style of Josephus. Josephus was a voluminous writer. He wrote extensively about men of minor importance. The brevity of this reference to Christ is, therefore, a strong argument for its falsity. This passage interrupts the narrative. It has nothing to do with what precedes or what follows it; and its position clearly shows that the text of the historian has been separated by a later hand to give it room. Josephus was a Jew -- a priest of the religion of Moses. This passage makes him acknowledge the divinity, the miracles, and the resurrection of Christ -- that is to say, it makes an orthodox Jew talk like a believing Christian! Josephus could not possibly have written these words without being logically compelled to embrace Christianity. All the arguments of history and of reason unite in the conclusive proof that the passage is an unblushing forgery.
For these reasons every honest Christian scholar has abandoned it as an interpolation. Dean Milman says: "It is interpolated with many additional clauses." Dean Farrar, writing in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, says: "That Josephus wrote the whole passage as it now stands no sane critic can believe." Bishop Warburton denounced it as "a rank forgery and a very stupid one, too." Chambers' Encyclopaedia says: "The famous passage of Josephus is generally conceded to be an interpolation."
In the "Annals" of Tacitus, the Roman historian, there is another short passage which speaks of "Christus" as being the founder of a party called Christians -- a body of people "who were abhorred for their crimes." These words occur in Tacitus' account of the burning of Rome. The evidence for this passage is not much stronger than that for the passage in Josephus. It was not quoted by any writer before the fifteenth century; and when it was quoted, there was only one copy of the "Annals" in the world; and that copy was supposed to have been made in the eighth century -- six hundred years after Tacitus' death. The "Annals" were published between 115 and 117 A.D., nearly a century after Jesus' time -- so the passage, even if genuine, would not prove anything as to Jesus.
The name "Jesus" was as common among the Jews as is William or George with us. In the writings of Josephus, we find accounts of a number of Jesuses. One was Jesus, the son of Sapphias, the founder of a seditious band of mariners; another was Jesus, the captain of the robbers whose followers fled when they heard of his arrest; still another Jesus was a monomaniac who for seven years went about Jerusalem, crying, "Woe, woe, woe unto Jerusalem!" who was bruised and beaten many times, but offered no resistance; and who was finally killed with a stone at the siege of Jerusalem.
The word "Christ," the Greek equivalent of the Jewish word "Messiah," was not a personal name; it was a title; it meant "the Anointed One."
The Jews were looking for a Messiah, a successful political leader, who would restore the independence of their nation. Josephus tells us of many men who posed as Messiahs, who obtained a following among the people, and who were put to death by the Romans for political reasons. One of these Messiahs, or Christs, a Samaritan prophet, was executed under Pontius Pilate; and so great was the indignation of the Jews that Pilate had to be recalled by the Roman government.

There's more at the weblink, if you care to look. There's more to the historicity aspect of all this than what you've been told . . .
If you care to look, you'll be quite astonished, I'm sure . . .

**Kingweb50** · 11-15-2007, 02:57 AM

Tock...I was just wondering how you came about all of your thoughts on this as a kid did you go to church all the time and grow to hate it or do you still go to church and study the bible? Im just asking cause you seem to be knowledgable about the subject in both ways Im assuming.

**sonnygll** · 11-15-2007, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by magic32

Addressing the second part of your text first:

The fundamental problem with what is stated above is simply that of a STANDARD, you don't have one! Without standards terms like "Very ethical" and "Greatest good" are meaningless. What you posit is no different than saying you're the "Greatest/Best" student without using a grading system, such an honor only belongs to the valedictorian because his/her grades were compared to all others. Sure you could say that you're a "Very" good basketball player, but where is the standard for comparision...all kindergarteners in your zip code? The local YMCA? The Streetball tour bus? The European MVP trophy? The college player of the year award? The NBA MVP trophy? What???

Without a barometer all comparison breaks down, and this is where you are with "Very ethical" and "Greatest good"...NOWHERE!

--------------------------------
It is apparent that you read very little if any of this thread, as your post makes me sound like a rambling religious fanatic rather than a rational mind that believes in Christ. The problem here is obviously your contention that reason and Christ are diametrically opposed.
Let's take a look below.

I'm EXTREMELY open-minded, but you're not putting anything into mine...PLEASE build a case for me.
In other words, GIVE me something to believe, or at least disprove what I do.

For example, I say there is a God and a Satan, you and Tock hold the opposite stance which puts us both in a pickle without proof.

GOD: Well, I tender that the world itself, which no scientist worth his lab coat would assert merely came into existence, is testimony of God as well as the life, death, and resurrection of Christ whom we KNOW lived because of Biblical and extra-Biblical account. Just as we know Harod and Ramseys did.
SATAN: By your account evil is a mere superstition...that sounds a lot like a brush off to me. How do you not acknowledge the abundance of NEGATIVE supernatural activity throughout the world from real witchcraft, voodoo and hoodoo to demonic possession (and please play the mental illness card, which could never do what people in these states have done).

For instance, (meaning I do NOT believe this), neither of us can TRULY use our physical senses to detect (much like God). How could you convince me otherwise? You'd indicate the signs, or the things that the mentally ill do that are inconsistent with those of healthy people. Now given enough inconsistencies, and especially if done prolifically (both measures used in the DSM IV), having no other definitive cause, I'd have to agree. For evaluation and diagnosis, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders primarily considers: the acts or behaviors; their intensity (mild, moderate, severe or profound); and frequency. Isn’t ODD that such scientific reasoning is not extended to Christ?

Jesus certainly existed making the ONLY REAL question, “Was He mere man, or God?” Well He claimed to be God which itself hints towards craziness…a la the God-Complex. But somehow He fulfills each criterion in grand fashion…I use the same logic here as above, let’s take a scientific look:
His actions and behaviors include clearly supernatural miracles.
The intensity of these miracles was profound healing the sick, diseased, blind, and lame including raising the dead.
Frequency exhibits great proficiency (never failed with a person), and astounding prolificacy (number of accounts are remarkable)

...the rest as they say is His-Story.

Sound reasonable? That only leaves one loose end…

The sole possible argument to the contrary is that of source information. Surely the protagonist of His own book will be made to into a hero. Even Matt Damon can be super agent in his own movie trilogy. So, as mentioned above, how do we KNOW without doubt that Harod and Ramseys truly existed and did what is credited them, or for that matter George Washington and Abe Lincoln? There is no photographical evidence of existence, or video footage of their acts as their lives predate such technology. But we safely TRUST in their existence and works because of collaborative multi-source accounts. So a fanatic as you described above, would be Biblically bound, whereas a reasoning man and seeker of truth would search for corroboration.

Are there any extra-Biblical records?

And if so, there should certainly be A LOT FOR SO GREAT A MAN/GOD! This is where evolution plummets, we can find dinosaurs but where are all these missing links (between species) and millions of years of evolving ape-like civilizations? Well they don’t exist but this is quietly overlooked…some science! But I digress, back to other accounts of Jesus, His works, followers, as well as signs that SUPPOSEDLY occurred during His death. Even a little research will reveal volumes...here's a start:

ANCIENT NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation)
-------------------------------
Julius Africanus, writing around 221 AD, found a reference in the writings of Thallus, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean around 52 AD, which dealt with the supernatural darkness that covered the land during Jesus's crucifixion:
-------------------------------

Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
-----------------------
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD):
"Because the Jews of Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city."
"After the great fire at Rome [during Nero's reign] ... Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief, led by one who did great miracles in all lands that could not be explained."
----------------------
Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD:
"[The Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." Pliny added that Christianity attracted persons of all societal ranks, all ages, both sexes, and from both the city and the country. Late in his letter to Emperor Trajan, Pliny refers to the teachings of Jesus and his followers as excessive and contagious superstition.
---------------------------
Emperor Trajan, in reply to Pliny:
"The method you have pursued, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those denounced to you as Christians is extremely proper. It is not possible to lay down any general rule which can be applied as the fixed standard in all cases of this nature. No search should be made for these people; when they are denounced and found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Informations without the accuser's name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age."
------------------------------
Emporer Hadrian (117-138 AD), in a letter to Minucius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul:
"I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be passed by without examination, so that these men may neither be harassed, nor opportunity of malicious proceedings be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly evince their charges against the Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not by mere petitions, and mere outcries against the Christians. For it is far more proper, if anyone would bring an accusation, that you should examine it." Hadrian further explained that if Christians were found guilty they should be judged "according to the heinousness of the crime." If the accusers were only slandering the believers, then those who inaccurately made the charges were to be punished.
--------------------------
The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD:
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."
[Another early reference in the Talmud speaks of five of Jesus's disciples and recounts their standing before judges who make individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. However, no actual deaths are recorded.]
------------------------------
Lucian, a second century Greek satirist:
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. ... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, who did truly and inexplicably disappear from the well guarded tomb…was He really God? All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." Lucian also reported that the Christians had "sacred writings" which were frequently read. When something affected them, "they spare no trouble, no expense."
------------------------------
Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."

GNOSTICS SOURCES

The Gospel of Truth, probably by Valentius, around 135-160 AD:
"For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son. When he had appeared instructing them about the Father. ... For he came by means of fleshly appearance." Other passages affirm that the Son of God came in the flesh and "the Word came into the midst. ... it became a body."
"Jesus, was patient in accepting sufferings. . . since he knows that his death is life for many. . . . he was nailed to a tree; he published the edict of the Father on the cross. ... He draws himself down to death through life. ... eternal clothes him. Having stripped himself of the perishable rags, he put on imperishability, which no one can possibly take away from him."
---------------------------------------
The Aprocryphon of John, probably by Saturninus, around 120-130 AD:
"It happened one day when John, the brother of James,--who are the sons of Zebedee--went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, `Where is your master whom you followed?' And he said to him, 'He has gone to the place from which he came.' The Pharisee said to him, 'This Nazarene deceived you with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.'"
---------------------------------
The Gospel of Thomas, probably from 140-200 AD:
Contain many references to and alleged quotations of Jesus.
--------------------------------
The Treatise On Resurrection, by uncertain author of the late second century, to Rheginos:
"The Lord ... existed in flesh and ... revealed himself as Son of God ... Now the Son of God, Rheginos, was Son of Man. He embraced them both, possessing the humanity and the divinity, so that on the one hand he might vanquish death through his being Son of God, and that on the other through the Son of Man the restoration to the Pleroma might occur; because he was originally from above, a seed of the Truth, before this structure of the cosmos had come into being."
"For we have known the Son of Man, and we have believed that he rose from among the dead. This is he of whom we say, 'He became the destruction of death, as he is a great one in whom they believe.' Great are those who believe."
"The Savior swallowed up death. ... He transformed himself into an imperishable Aeon and raised himself up, having swallowed the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way of our immortality."
"Do not think the resurrection is an illusion. It is no illusion, but it is truth. Indeed, it is more fitting to say that the world is an illusion, rather than the resurrection which has come into being through our Lord the Savior, Jesus Christ."
". . . already you have the resurrection ... why not consider yourself as risen and already brought to this?" Rheginos was thus encouraged not to "continue as if you are to die."
-----------------------------------

LOST WORKS QUOTED IN OTHER SOURCES

Acts of Pontius Pilate, reports sent from Pilate to Tiberius, referred to by Justin Martyr (150 AD):
"And the expression, 'They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate." Later Justin lists several healing miracles and asserts, "And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate."
-------------------------------
Phlegon, born about 80 AD, as reported by Origen (185-254 AD), mentions that Jesus made certain predictions which were all fulfilled.
--------------------------------

ANCIENT CHRISTIAN SOURCES
(extra-biblical)

Clement, elder of Rome, letter to the Corinthian church (95 AD):
"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."
--------------------------------
Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, letter to the Trallians (110-115 AD):
"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth; who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His Father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe on Him."
-------------------------------
Ignatius, letter to the Smyrneans (110-115 AD):
"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptised by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we--that is, of his most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection."
"For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, 'Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without body.' And straightway they touched him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Wherefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. And after His resurrection He ate with them and drank with them."
-------------------------------
Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians (110-115 AD):
"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate; for these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope."
-------------------------------
Quadratus, to Emperor Hadrian about 125 AD:
"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when He had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."
-------------------------------
Barnabas, written 130-138 AD:
"He must needs be manifested in the flesh. ... He preached teaching Israel and performing so many wonders and miracles, and He loved them exceedingly. ... He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel. ... But He Himself desired so to suffer; for it was necessary for Him to suffer on a tree."
---------------------------------
Justin Martyr, to Emperor Antoninus Pius about 150 AD:
After referring to Jesus's birth of a virgin in the town of Bethlehem, and that His physical line of descent came through the tribe of Judah and the family of Jesse, Justin wrote, "Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea."
"Accordingly, after He was crucified, even all His acquaintances forsook Him, having denied Him; and afterwards, when He had risen from the dead and appeared to them, and had taught them to read the prophecies in which all these things were foretold as coming to pass, and when they had seen Him ascending into heaven, and had believed, and had received power sent thence by Him upon them, and went to every race of men, they taught these things, and were called apostles."
----------------------------------
Justin Martyr, in Dialogue with Trypho, around 150 AD:
"For at the time of His birth, Magi who came from Arabia worshipped Him, coming first to Herod, who then was sovereign in your land."
"For when they crucified Him, driving in the nails, they pierced His hands and feet; and those who crucified Him parted His garments among themselves, each casting lots for what he chose to have, and receiving according to the decision of the lot."
"Christ said amongst you that He would give the sign of Jonah, exhorting you to repent of your wicked deeds at least after He rose again from the dead ... yet you not only have not repented, after you learned that He rose from the dead, but, as I said before, you have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that 'a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilean deceiver, whom we crucified, but His disciples stole Him by night from the tomb, where He was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that He has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven.'"
"For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."
-------------------------------

The real issue of the resurrection deals with its evidence. This evidence consists of the testimony of many people who stated that they had seen Jesus after His crucifixion and death. The same people who testified of the resurrection of Christ also gave up their social and economic security and put their lives on the line in order proclaim that Jesus had risen. Does it make any sense at all to say that they knew Jesus did not rise from the dead and had concocted an elaborate plan in order to deceive a great many people into believing that Jesus had risen? Why would they do that? Does it also make any sense that they would continue in this lie while being persecuted, ostracized from family and friends, beaten, imprisoned, and finally killed for what they believed?

It makes more sense to believe that their actions were consistent with their teaching. In other words, they taught about self-sacrifice, dedication to truth, love, peace, etc., and they based it all on the risen Lord. It was based upon the truth that they had seen.

Actually I do have a standard. It is the same standard we are all born with. Unless someone is mentally ill or has some sort of other emotional problems they have this too. Think about it, you pick and choose which parts of the bible are good and which parts are bad. The message of love and kindness you grasp onto because you know it's good. However I am sure you don't think wiping out a whole group of people in a flood is ok. Or committing genocide against different tribes, forcing people to eat their children, tell your chosen people which criteria to use for taking slaves and so on. You ignore the vengeance and ruthless cruelty because you know it's wrong. Everyone has always known that. It didn't come from the bible. So either people have an inborn sense of right and wrong or genocide is ok in certain circumstances. You can't have it both ways.

To go at it from another way. If there was no god to keep you in line, would you go around stealing and killing people? I really don't think you would.

I actually did read much of the thread. I did skim some of your propaganda, but mostly I read it.

Well obviously you aren't going to think you are close minded on the subject. To you it seems perfectly rational.

That's as far as I am going to go however. Like I said it just wouldn't be right. I really just posted for 2 simple reasons. First to show my support for the opposition. Second to state that it would do no good, and just be cruel to try to ruin your faith.

One more thing I almost forgot, is to explain "greatest good". That simply means in any situation to do the most good. For example when they dropped the bomb on Japan to end world war 2. While many people died, even more would have died if they had gone on with the invasion. Or like the regular guys that fought in that war, that gave their lives so untold billions would be free of Nazi domination. It is simply the better choice of any moral dilemma. But which is the better choice, is made by our sense of ethics I mentioned earlier.

**magic32** · 11-15-2007, 07:15 AM

Sadly, a personal standard is anything but!
As exhibited from toddlerhood (first choices) to twilight years, people will often skirt righteousness.

**Tock** · 11-15-2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kingweb50

Tock...I was just wondering how you came about all of your thoughts on this as a kid did you go to church all the time and grow to hate it or do you still go to church and study the bible? Im just asking cause you seem to be knowledgable about the subject in both ways Im assuming.

I never went to church until I was 15, but started going because a local church needed a piano player, and I love captive audiences.
Along the way, I paid attention to sermons and read lots & lots about fundamentalist theology and the Bible, and bought into that approach to religion. I had planned to become a minister after a stint in the USAF, but while in the military I discovered that I'm gay. My church didn't want any part of me after they heard that news, so I started going to the Metropolitan Community church here in Dallas. I tried to enroll in the Dallas Theological Seminary, but they asked me what church I belonged to, and when I told them, they threw me out. So, I figured the ministry wasn't for me after all.
Meanwhile, I kept reading up on Bible stuff, I taught Sunday School, too. But I had heard some criticisms of fundamentalist theology, and some of those criticisms made sense (which disturbed me greatly). So, I set about to see if I could disprove those things, and the more I looked into them, the worse things looked. I also found some stuff about atheism, and the more I looked at that, the more sense that made . . .
So I had a lot of conflicting notions circulating through my mind . . .

I began to question not only my faith, but the Bible itself. The more I read up on (both sides of the historicity of the bible, the more I doubted that the bible was indeed the result of the Universe's Creator talking to humans. Meanwhile, lots of TV evangelists and Republican politicians were bad-mouthing gays, basing their sentiments on the Bible. I started to refute some of their BS in local newspapers (letters to the editor, opinion pieces, etc) and the more I had to do that, the less I liked either fundamentalists or Republicans. And I've been doing all that for, um, 20 years or so.

But over the past few years, I've begun to appreciate the solace and comfort that a liberal approach to religion can be. I have some Episcopalian friends who seem happy with their church. Their clergy take an approach to the Bible that I'm unfamiliar with; it seems they are more interested in following Jesus' teachings, instead of rigidly conforming to the strict dictates of the bible.
That approach seems to work for them. And maybe one of these days I'll even attend a church service . . .

Meanwhile, I'm very skeptical of the legalistic, fundamentalist approach to religion espoused by many outspoken Christians. And, if they're willing to speak up on behalf of their more obnoxious opinions, I'm certainly willing to speak up and show the shortcomings of their theology.

**sonnygll** · 11-15-2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

Sadly, a personal standard is anything but!
As exhibited from toddlerhood (first choices) to twilight years, people will often skirt righteousness.

Toddlers don't have the understanding yet. Children are completely self centered at that age because they don't have an understanding of what other people are. So their way will only work in their sphere of understanding.

Now if you mean religious morality, that doesn't otherwise make sense. Then yea, I'll agree to that. All of the sexual morality in particular are arbitrary rules that come from the bible. Or whichever book is used depending on the religion.

For example, I wouldn't cheat on a wife or girlfriend, or just trick a woman to use her for sex. That hurts another person. However I have no problem having casual sex including oral and anal, or strokin it to some porn.

So in the bible it says you should stone a man to death if he lies with another man. So, could you, Magic, stone Tock to death?

You kind of avoided some of my points earlier. But that's ok, I'm not going to force the issue.

**sonnygll** · 11-15-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

I never went to church until I was 15, but started going because a local church needed a piano player, and I love captive audiences.
Along the way, I paid attention to sermons and read lots & lots about fundamentalist theology and the Bible, and bought into that approach to religion. I had planned to become a minister after a stint in the USAF, but while in the military I discovered that I'm gay. My church didn't want any part of me after they heard that news, so I started going to the Metropolitan Community church here in Dallas. I tried to enroll in the Dallas Theological Seminary, but they asked me what church I belonged to, and when I told them, they threw me out. So, I figured the ministry wasn't for me after all.
Meanwhile, I kept reading up on Bible stuff, I taught Sunday School, too. But I had heard some criticisms of fundamentalist theology, and some of those criticisms made sense (which disturbed me greatly). So, I set about to see if I could disprove those things, and the more I looked into them, the worse things looked. I also found some stuff about atheism, and the more I looked at that, the more sense that made . . .
So I had a lot of conflicting notions circulating through my mind . . .

I began to question not only my faith, but the Bible itself. The more I read up on (both sides of the historicity of the bible, the more I doubted that the bible was indeed the result of the Universe's Creator talking to humans. Meanwhile, lots of TV evangelists and Republican politicians were bad-mouthing gays, basing their sentiments on the Bible. I started to refute some of their BS in local newspapers (letters to the editor, opinion pieces, etc) and the more I had to do that, the less I liked either fundamentalists or Republicans. And I've been doing all that for, um, 20 years or so.

But over the past few years, I've begun to appreciate the solace and comfort that a liberal approach to religion can be. I have some Episcopalian friends who seem happy with their church. Their clergy take an approach to the Bible that I'm unfamiliar with; it seems they are more interested in following Jesus' teachings, instead of rigidly conforming to the strict dictates of the bible.
That approach seems to work for them. And maybe one of these days I'll even attend a church service . . .

Meanwhile, I'm very skeptical of the legalistic, fundamentalist approach to religion espoused by many outspoken Christians. And, if they're willing to speak up on behalf of their more obnoxious opinions, I'm certainly willing to speak up and show the shortcomings of their theology.

Ah, well that answers my questions from the other thread. Yea, I read the bible all the way through and that kind of helped ruin it for me. Generally religious people just read the bible cliff notes.

You know, those people are right though. God really does hate homosexuals. In the bible it does say you should be stoned to death. Along with disobedient children and other such great evils. Fortunately most people are too civilized to do such things.

Have you ever read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? It's a favorite of mine, highly recommended if you haven't read it yet.

**Tock** · 11-18-2007, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by magic32

Sadly, a personal standard is anything but!
As exhibited from toddlerhood (first choices) to twilight years, people will often skirt righteousness.

As we all know, just because you claim to have a Biblical standard of morality (or even if you actually do), that doesn't mean that you're any better than anyone else.

Take for example:

All those wretched Christians who burnt heretics at the stake between 1300 AD and 1850 AD in the Inquisition.

All those wretched Christians who complied with the Biblical rule, "Thou shalt not permit a witch to live."

TV evangelist Jimmy Swaggart, who spent years on nationwide TV bewailing "sexual immorality" but was discovered in a cheap Louisiana motel patronizing cheap whores.

Rev. Terry Hornbuckle of Arlington, TX, who on Aug. 22, 2006, was found guilty of drugging and raping three women. Two of the three women were members of his church.

An "ex-gay" Christian counselor was recently found guilty of sexually assaulting another man -- "Ex-Gay" Counselor Convicted of Sexual Assault on Man

A pastor was accused of raping a woman in order to cast out her demons -- Pastor accused of rape by casting out demons

The San Diego Catholic Diocese agreed to pay $198 million to settle 144 child abuse claims -- San Diego diocese to pay $198 million to settle 144 abuse claims

Religious polygamists kick out teen-age boys so that there will be plenty girls to go around to the Christian old men -- Boys Cast Out by Polygamists Find Help

A Christian and anti-gay US Senator (Larry Craig) was arrested for soliciting gay sex in a public rest room -- Arrest clouds Idaho senator's future

Republican US Senator David Vitter caught doing business with prostitutes -- Pro-Family Anti-Gay Republican Senator admits patronizing Prostitutes

Baptist preacher calls for DEATH to anyone who criticizes his tax-exempt status -- Babtist Preacher: DEATH to my tax status critics

Senseless deaths in stupid exorcism -- Fatal end to Exorcism Attempt

Republican National leader caught performing oral sex on youth -- yet another Republican Gay Sex Scandal

Republican National leader admits raping a girl -- Republican sex scandal -- Elected Republican admits Rape

**Amorphic** · 11-18-2007, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

As we all know, just because you claim to have a Biblical standard of morality (or even if you actually do), that doesn't mean that you're any better than anyone else.

Take for example:

All those wretched Christians who burnt heretics at the stake between 1300 AD and 1850 AD in the Inquisition.

All those wretched Christians who complied with the Biblical rule, "Thou shalt not permit a witch to live."

TV evangelist Jimmy Swaggart, who spent years on nationwide TV bewailing "sexual immorality" but was discovered in a cheap Louisiana motel patronizing cheap whores.

Rev. Terry Hornbuckle of Arlington, TX, who on Aug. 22, 2006, was found guilty of drugging and raping three women. Two of the three women were members of his church.

An "ex-gay" Christian counselor was recently found guilty of sexually assaulting another man -- "Ex-Gay" Counselor Convicted of Sexual Assault on Man

A pastor was accused of raping a woman in order to cast out her demons -- Pastor accused of rape by casting out demons

The San Diego Catholic Diocese agreed to pay $198 million to settle 144 child abuse claims -- San Diego diocese to pay $198 million to settle 144 abuse claims

Religious polygamists kick out teen-age boys so that there will be plenty girls to go around to the Christian old men -- Boys Cast Out by Polygamists Find Help

A Christian and anti-gay US Senator (Larry Craig) was arrested for soliciting gay sex in a public rest room -- Arrest clouds Idaho senator's future

Republican US Senator David Vitter caught doing business with prostitutes -- Pro-Family Anti-Gay Republican Senator admits patronizing Prostitutes

Baptist preacher calls for DEATH to anyone who criticizes his tax-exempt status -- Babtist Preacher: DEATH to my tax status critics

Senseless deaths in stupid exorcism -- Fatal end to Exorcism Attempt

Republican National leader caught performing oral sex on youth -- yet another Republican Gay Sex Scandal

Republican National leader admits raping a girl -- Republican sex scandal -- Elected Republican admits Rape

pwned

**magic32** · 11-25-2007, 01:07 PM

WASTING TIME WITH SCOFFERS IS UNWISE AND MOST WASTEFUL, I'M ONLY HERE TO HELP THOSE WHO SEEK UNDERSTANDING WITH REGARD TO BIBLICAL QUESTIONS. SO SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN OMITTED FROM MY RADAR.

NOW TO ADDRESS WHAT YOU POSED:

Originally Posted by sonnygll

Toddlers don't have the understanding yet. Children are completely self centered at that age because they don't have an understanding of what other people are. So their way will only work in their sphere of understanding.
TRUE, BUT WHY? YOU SEEM TO ACCEPT THIS AS NECESSITY, AND ALSO TO MINIMIZE IT AS MERELY SELF-CENTERED WHEN IT ACTUALLY GOES, MUCH DEEPER.
WHY IS MAN EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING SELF-CENTERED? DISOBEDIENT? LAW BREAKING?
THE BIBLE SAYS IT’S THE SIN NATURE, UNDERWHICH WE ARE BORN.

Now if you mean religious morality, that doesn't otherwise make sense. Then yea, I'll agree to that. All of the sexual morality in particular are arbitrary rules that come from the bible. Or whichever book is used depending on the religion.
I THINK YOU MEAN SEXUAL IMMORALITY, BUT IT CAN'T BE ARBITRARY IF GOD EXISTS AND CREATED ALL THINGS, THEN IT BECOMES COMMANDMENT. THIS IS WHY MANY DON'T FOLLOW BIBLICAL LAWS...THEY DON'T WANT TO BE COMMANDED, AND YOU KNOW WHAT, THAT'S THEIR PERROGATIVE.

For example, I wouldn't cheat on a wife or girlfriend, or just trick a woman to use her for sex. That hurts another person. However I have no problem having casual sex including oral and anal, or strokin it to some porn.
RIGHT & WRONG ARE NOT MERELY ABOUT HURTING ANOTHER PERSON...MORALITY AND CHRISTIANITY ARE NOT SYNONYMS:

MORALITY SAYS DO WHAT IS RIGHT, BUT HAS NO STANDARD FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH LEAVES MAN TO HIS OWN DEVICES.
CONVERSELY, CHRISTIANITY SAYS DO WHAT IS RIGHT, BASED ON THE BIBLE'S/CHRIST'S STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

So in the bible it says you should stone a man to death if he lies with another man. So, could you, Magic, stone Tock to death?
THAT'S IMPROPER DISCERNMENT. GOD HANDED DOWN DIFFERENT PARTS OF HIS LAW THROUGHOUT TIME UNTIL CHRIST'S FULFILLMENT. JUST AS YOU'D REPRIMAND A CHILD FOR ATTEMPTING TO DRIVE, THEN BUY THEM A CAR ON THE 16TH B-DAY.
JESUS SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED YOUR ISSUE AGREEING WITH THE LAW, THEY DESERVE TO BE STONED, BUT EXTENDING MERCY.

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

JUSTICE - U GET WHAT YOU DESERVE
GRACE - U GET WHAT YOU DON'T DESERVE
MERCY - U DON'T GET WHAT YOU DESERVE

You kind of avoided some of my points earlier. But that's ok, I'm not going to force the issue.
PLEASE REITERATE THEM, BUT NOTE THAT I'M NOT HERE TO ARGUE OR DEAL WITH THOSE WHO DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WORD.

Thread: Do you have any questions about the Bible?

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Rate This Thread

Display

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

Posting Permissions

Zebol 50 - deca?

34 Years Old, Strong, and Always...

Need a clenbuterol source

Does Flowmax effect anything?

My First Cycle: Planning and...

Zebol 50 - deca?

Zebol 50 - deca?

Zebol 50 - deca?

Zebol 50 - deca?