**Marcus's HIT Dungeon**

**numbere** · 10-08-2016, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by almostgone

You recall correctly, Numbere. My BW 3 months ago was good. My BW this past week was crap as far as hormone levels. It's just time for an adjustment of some sort.

I always thought once you have a protocol down life is good. Is it normal for hormones to fluctuate like that while on TRT?

**almostgone** · 10-08-2016, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by numbere

I always thought once you have a protocol down life is good. Is it normal for hormones to fluctuate like that while on TRT?

With older guys, there are sometimes issues with increasing SHBG. Also, I am just starting to get dialed in on a more modern protocol, so there are still a few tweaks to be made.
LOL, my body is somewhat atypical.

Several of the heart meds I was on had little to no effect on me ( Coumadin didn't work, never could hit a therapeutic level of Digoxin although I was on max doses of each).
I believe it's just a small protocol adjustment for my T, however.

**hammerheart** · 10-08-2016, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by numbere

I always thought once you have a protocol down life is good. Is it normal for hormones to fluctuate like that while on TRT?

The nebido protocol won't work for anyone, I went from high to very low estrogen throughout the period, every pin was like restarting TRT all over again.

Were to go back to TU I'd pin every other week.

Originally Posted by almostgone

With older guys, there are sometimes issues with increasing SHBG.

It's not exclusive to old age...

**almostgone** · 10-08-2016, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

It's not exclusive to old age...

No, but it is something that commonly occurs as age increases.

**numbere** · 10-08-2016, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by almostgone

With older guys, there are sometimes issues with increasing SHBG. Also, I am just starting to get dialed in on a more modern protocol, so there are still a few tweaks to be made.
LOL, my body is somewhat atypical.

Several of the heart meds I was on had little to no effect on me ( Coumadin didn't work, never could hit a therapeutic level of Digoxin although I was on max doses of each).
I believe it's just a small protocol adjustment for my T, however.

Well as a friend of mine would say, more to look forward to if I ever break out of my teens.

Originally Posted by bizzarro

The nebido protocol won't work for anyone, I went from high to very low estrogen throughout the period, every pin was like restarting TRT all over again.

Were to go back to TU I'd pin every other week.

I thought the average TU/Aveed regimen was something along the lines of 750mg every 10 days.

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

The nebido protocol won't work for anyone, I went from high to very low estrogen throughout the period, every pin was like restarting TRT all over again.

Were to go back to TU I'd pin every other week..

I wouldn't say it won't work for anyone. I know several that are very satisfied with it. However, it may not be for everyone. When my Dr. and I discussed it before , I said I would be interested in trying it but I did so with the caveat that I would want to go back to cyp if Aveed didn't treat me right.

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by numbere

Well as a friend of mine would say, more to look forward to if I ever break out of my teens.

LOL, you have a wise friend.

**hammerheart** · 10-09-2016, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by numbere

Well as a friend of mine would say, more to look forward to if I ever break out of my teens.

I thought the average TU/Aveed regimen was something along the lines of 750mg every 10 days.

Aveed is 750mg but nebido in europe is 1g. Protocol was every ten weeks, at the of interval tT was about 800 (I'm an absolutely poor metabolizer), but I don't seem to aromatize enough to have enough E2 unless tT stays supra-physiological, I dunno if this due to highish SHBG.

Obviously on the other end I will start to get high E2 issues.

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 01:30 AM

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 01:51 AM

I just watched that early this morning. Duffin is just crazy strong. Smart as the dickens, too.

**DocToxin8** · 10-09-2016, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by numbere

Shoulder injuries are odd when considering what movements cause pain. How did you injure your shoulder?

By far my favorite shoulder SS is shoulder press with either DB or BB upright rows. That is if you're looking for mass over conditioning.

Are you using the TNE as a supplementation to your TRT regimen or as a pre workout?

I'm not sure how I injured my shoulder, I was doing great, having changed my program so that I hadn't had a shoulder issue in well over a year.

By favorite shoulder SS you mean SuperSet?
So shoulder press with dumbbell or barbell rows?
I do st.rows with barbell as part of by back routine so I think I misunderstand.
I have always lowed shoulder press with Dumbbells though, or barbell (by which i mean a regular bar with weights) shoulder presses in front.
(I lower the bar with weight in front, almost to where I'd place it with a front squat, then lift it overhead)

Doing shoulder presses preferably with Dumbbells, usually twisting so that when going down on the negative so it feels more natural to go deeper.

The movement that have caused pain is pretty much all press excersizes from regular bench press with legs up (thus no arched back),
to incline and shoulder press.

Before my first treatment I couldn't do incline chest press with 10kg Dumbbells totally pain free, after one treatment I could do 20kg dumbells without pain.
I haven't done shoulder presses in two months now I think,
but feel ready now.

**DocToxin8** · 10-09-2016, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by almostgone

I wouldn't say it won't work for anyone. I know several that are very satisfied with it. However, it may not be for everyone. When my Dr. and I discussed it before , I said I would be interested in trying it but I did so with the caveat that I would want to go back to cyp if Aveed didn't treat me right.

I thought it was standard to combine Nebido with Testogel to keep levels good all the way?
To expect any IM compound to be stable over 10 weeks without any "help" sounds like they've listened to much to the Pharma rep.

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by DocToxin8

I thought it was standard to combine Nebido with Testogel to keep levels good all the way?
To expect any IM compound to be stable over 10 weeks without any "help" sounds like they've listened to much to the Pharma rep.

It isn't with Aveed (that I know of), and I don't think that it is with Nebido, but I could be mistaken?

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by DocToxin8

I thought it was standard to combine Nebido with Testogel to keep levels good all the way?
To expect any IM compound to be stable over 10 weeks without any "help" sounds like they've listened to much to the Pharma rep.

Never heard of that before and ive must of read hundreds of studies on Nebido, there are a lot of studies done on nebido showing higher T levels and more stable T over TE. Not sure about Aveed because we don't have that here but its not common practise to use testogel with nebido. If you check the official site out and go to te research news section you will see all you need to on Nebido, some studies go on for 4yrs,6yrs and 8yrs, its been heavily studied in Europe.

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by almostgone

It isn't with Aveed (that I know of), and I don't think that it is with Nebido, but I could be mistaken?

Same here never heard anything like that before, kind of pointless if you had to

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by almostgone

I just watched that early this morning. Duffin is just crazy strong. Smart as the dickens, too.

Been watching afew before I go into the gym

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Aveed is 750mg but nebido in europe is 1g. Protocol was every ten weeks, at the of interval tT was about 800 (I'm an absolutely poor metabolizer), but I don't seem to aromatize enough to have enough E2 unless tT stays supra-physiological, I dunno if this due to highish SHBG.

Obviously on the other end I will start to get high E2 issues.

Bizzaro your unique you know that don't you, the health issues you have you should be a study on its own,

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by numbere

Well as a friend of mine would say, more to look forward to if I ever break out of my teens.

I thought the average TU/Aveed regimen was something along the lines of 750mg every 10 days.

Not sure about Aveed but nebido they normally start at 8 weeks to 12 weeks. I am at every 12 weeks but ive been down to 11 weeks but T was to high so reduce me to 12 weeks.

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 02:32 AM

Gym calling - shoulder get ready

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Not sure about Aveed but nebido they normally start at 8 weeks to 12 weeks. I am at every 12 weeks but ive been down to 11 weeks but T was to high so reduce me to 12 weeks.

Aveed is similar, but at the lower "FDA approved" (pffft....FDA) dosage. 750mg for.the first dose, 750mg 1 month later, and then 750mg every 10 weeks after.

Dosing | AVEEDÂ® (testosterone undecanoate) injection CIII

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Been watching afew before I go into the gym

Coffee?

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 02:48 AM

7 egg whites, salsa, and chopped jalapeños for breakfast, then off to bed in a bit. Really going to push to get to the shop tonight.

**DocToxin8** · 10-09-2016, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Same here never heard anything like that before, kind of pointless if you had to

I should have been a little more precise with my statement,
I though it was not uncommon to supplement with testogel.
(Yes I've seen the studies and were a little hasty)

It's just that I think (maybe totally wrong) that an athlete who trains a lot would have a harder time reaching stable blood levels on IM TU alone, than the "regular person".
Also, a friend of mine was prescribed both Nebido and testogel.
Don't know if he used the testogel the entire time, or just at the end.
In those studies I've seen the T levels were often supraphysiological the first week, and then normal for quite some time.
I was thinking that if levels started to dip a little the last two weeks f.ex,
a little gel would fix that without having to change injection frequency which would keep supraphysiological levels more of the time.

Maybe it's just that HRT doc who's very nice about keeping T high,
Maybe it was just cause friend is a somewhat special case,
Having no aromatase enzyme naturally for one.
(And he used to take gear in dosages like this;
5grams of test e a week, 2 grams of nandrolone )

Edit:
I know having no aromatase enzyme seems like an old wives tale,
but look up aromatase deficiency for men. It's very uncommon and has some strange effects, often associated with low T and bad sperm.
(One would think T would be higher without aromatase, just like when using an AI on a normal man, but strangely not the case)

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by almostgone

Aveed is similar, but at the lower "FDA approved" (pffft....FDA) dosage. 750mg for.the first dose, 750mg 1 month later, and then 750mg every 10 weeks after.

Dosing | AVEEDÂ® (testosterone undecanoate) injection CIII

Yeah ag I know the recommend protocol just saying I've never seen any studies because it's always been nebido I've looked at. Sounds similar protocol

I know the fda were concerned about injection volume because some knob was coughing on some study but looking into it he was a pussy lol. Must of never injected 4ml into the outer bicep head xx

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 03:03 AM

Yes shake with coffee going in now for serious assault

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Yeah ag I know the recommend protocol just saying I've never seen any studies because it's always been nebido I've looked at. Sounds similar protocol

I know the fda were concerned about injection volume because some knob was coughing on some study but looking into it he was a pussy lol. Must of never injected 4ml into the outer bicep head xx

I concur on all the above information.

. Go tear the gym apart.

**InternalFire** · 10-09-2016, 04:15 AM

morning iron heads, have a great weekend every1!

**InternalFire** · 10-09-2016, 04:22 AM

gonna go all out on shoulders today

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 04:29 AM

3 people asked what am I on lol

Destroying it and making me go further into my zone.

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

3 people asked what am I on lol

Destroying it and making me go further into my zone.

I like the sound of that!

**almostgone** · 10-09-2016, 04:55 AM

Ok, bed time for me. I'm heading down to the shop tonight and low t be damned. Hopefully, the Dr. will work with me Tues. She has been fairly receptive this far.
I've got copies of my insurance prescription limits ( 4 -1 ml vials of 200mg/ml cyp every 28 days), copies of their hormone replacement policies, copies of Aveed prescribing and dosage info (she kept the Aveed info I gave her last time), and a few testosterone cyp metabolism charts. Think I'm prepared, just anxious and ready to get this nailed down for a few months.
She knows I work hard when I'm lifting. LOL, she was actually impressed and concerned when I tore my quad last year. Said very few of her patients put out that kind of effort, so maybe all will go well. Defo will make a point of mentioning how much better my hematocrit has been since I modified my diet and went on weekly injections, so I think my bases are covered. Of course, I will bring up how I feel like shit, am having issues concentrating on work, etc.
LOL, I'm not exactly the most patient person in the world.

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 04:56 AM

In carpark now. One of the best shoulders I've had in a long time. I looked big which is a surprise

Write it up when I'm home

**hammerheart** · 10-09-2016, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by DocToxin8

I should have been a little more precise with my statement,
I though it was not uncommon to supplement with testogel.
(Yes I've seen the studies and were a little hasty)

It's just that I think (maybe totally wrong) that an athlete who trains a lot would have a harder time reaching stable blood levels on IM TU alone, than the "regular person".
Also, a friend of mine was prescribed both Nebido and testogel.
Don't know if he used the testogel the entire time, or just at the end.
In those studies I've seen the T levels were often supraphysiological the first week, and then normal for quite some time.
I was thinking that if levels started to dip a little the last two weeks f.ex,
a little gel would fix that without having to change injection frequency which would keep supraphysiological levels more of the time.

Maybe it's just that HRT doc who's very nice about keeping T high,
Maybe it was just cause friend is a somewhat special case,
Having no aromatase enzyme naturally for one.
(And he used to take gear in dosages like this;
5grams of test e a week, 2 grams of nandrolone )

Edit:
I know having no aromatase enzyme seems like an old wives tale,
but look up aromatase deficiency for men. It's very uncommon and has some strange effects, often associated with low T and bad sperm.
(One would think T would be higher without aromatase, just like when using an AI on a normal man, but strangely not the case)

Testogel? Why not HCG ? That would well prevent any dip in both test and E2.

If I were to go back to nebido/TU the most wise thing to do I believe is to split the injection at least down to once monthly; personally I'd go for every other week.

Aromatase deficiency has a clear, distinct clinical presentation though.

**clarky.** · 10-09-2016, 05:24 AM

Hi fellas, hope everyone is doing good. I'll try and catch up but fvck this place moves fast. Not been keeping good fellas that's why av not been here.

Av had about a wk off the gym because of it and not eating so lost size av been told.
I got a good back session in on friday (my birthday

) and a got a good arm session in yesterday still very sore from the both.

I'm trying ma best to get ma sessions in but there is something going on, the doc is kinda confused lol. I feel ill bad style 24/7 no nrg ect. This has been going on for over 2wks, i can't eat i don't want to eat and if i do manage to eat i feel worse. Nightmate so i started to feel better friday and now am back to the same ill. I'll get my blood work from the endo this wk.

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Testogel? Why not HCG ? That would well prevent any dip in both test and E2.

If I were to go back to nebido/TU the most wise thing to do I believe is to split the injection at least down to once monthly; personally I'd go for every other week.

Aromatase deficiency has a clear, distinct clinical presentation though.

I really think your a unique case and ive not heard of anyone with so many issues going on like yourself, so I think its about finding out what the hell it is your lacking to help solve this turmoil your in, but very unique case and I wish you will find the THING it is what is making you feel so bad and also get you balanced properly.

I have never used an AI on nebido, no need for it for and I stopped using HCH after 3 yrs and never felt any different. Over in the UK they look at you very strange when you mention HCG lol.

How long have you had these problem bizz?

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Testogel? Why not HCG ? That would well prevent any dip in both test and E2.

.

A lot is mental imho I know this by going 16 weeks between injection once due to my T being way to high so they left me 16 wks between injection and I felt fucking awful but it was all in my head, because at 16 wks I was still in within the range and it was just below the top end of the range it ws me and my mind what was saying to me ive got low T now and feel like death warmed up were infact I wasn't I was top end and still high but they did release my injection once I came into range

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 05:38 AM

Had to really warm up the shoulder area due to my RC problem so I did these straight after each other without any rest periods

rolling
lateral raises holding small weight
bent over laterals small weights
towel stretches
broomstick stretches
high pulley face pulls

after the above no pain, no crunching and shoulders full of blood.

Seated single cybex side laterals
3 warm up sets
1 working set to failure down to halves and quarters

bent over db laterals
2 feel sets
1 working set plus one drop

face pulls
1 working set plus 3 drops

seated hammer shoulder press palms facing in
2 feel sets
1 working set plus 2 drops

shrugs U bar
2 working sets plus one drop then finished with behind the back shrugs on smith for one huge set

**hammerheart** · 10-09-2016, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

A lot is mental imho I know this by going 16 weeks between injection once due to my T being way to high so they left me 16 wks between injection and I felt fucking awful but it was all in my head, because at 16 wks I was still in within the range and it was just below the top end of the range it ws me and my mind what was saying to me ive got low T now and feel like death warmed up were infact I wasn't I was top end and still high but they did release my injection once I came into range

Well not necessarily... TU is a very slow release ester, comparing to TE is reasonable to expect lower free T and DHT/E2 conversion at same total test.

And besides... I really felt in better mood (but still not ok) later in the interval. In fact, many times I've been hesitant about pinning because I knew I would feel like crap again for a lot of time.

Back in march my endo said my AR could be defective. At the time I believed this to be BS but after looking at my BW I have been on ultra-physiological (I'd say subcycle) levels of Test since April by now and you would expect hematocrit to be through the roof, but it has gone up only of 1-1.5%... it might mean nothing as I also have this hereditary blood disorder called beta-thalassemia minor that perhaps put an hard limit to blood counts, but globally it could explain it all, so may be he was right.

Or... it could be just a ratio issues between hormones - DHT/E2/T. When I was on AI at least my beard was growing normally, now I'm back to shaving every other week.

This week I will finally start a trial of (very low dose) tren - as for the prolactin issue, I'm on caber, so no better time to do it - and see what a strong androgen, capable to activate the AR without conversion to DHT/E2 can do for me, whether it make me feel worse, better, or just the same.

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Well not necessarily... TU is a very slow release ester, comparing to TE is reasonable to expect lower free T and DHT/E2 conversion at same total test.

And besides... I really felt in better mood (but still not ok) later in the interval. In fact, many times I've been hesitant about pinning because I knew I would feel like crap again for a lot of time.

Back in march my endo said my AR could be defective. At the time I believed this to be BS but after looking at my BW I have been on ultra-physiological (I'd say subcycle) levels of Test since April by now and you would expect hematocrit to be through the roof, but it has gone up only of 1-1.5%... it might mean nothing as I also have this hereditary blood disorder called beta-thalassemia minor that perhaps put an hard limit to blood counts, but globally it could explain it all, so may be he was right.

Or... it could be just a ratio issues between hormones - DHT/E2/T. When I was on AI at least my beard was growing normally, now I'm back to shaving every other week.

This week I will finally start a trial of (very low dose) tren - as for the prolactin issue, I'm on caber, so no better time to do it - and see what a strong androgen, capable to activate the AR without conversion to DHT/E2 can do for me, whether it make me feel worse, better, or just the same.

Fucking hell Bizz, you certainly go through it

**marcus300** · 10-09-2016, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Well not necessarily... TU is a very slow release ester, comparing to TE is reasonable to expect lower free T and DHT/E2 conversion at same total test.

And besides... I really felt in better mood (but still not ok) later in the interval. In fact, many times I've been hesitant about pinning because I knew I would feel like crap again for a lot of time.

Back in march my endo said my AR could be defective. At the time I believed this to be BS but after looking at my BW I have been on ultra-physiological (I'd say subcycle) levels of Test since April by now and you would expect hematocrit to be through the roof, but it has gone up only of 1-1.5%... it might mean nothing as I also have this hereditary blood disorder called beta-thalassemia minor that perhaps put an hard limit to blood counts, but globally it could explain it all, so may be he was right.

Or... it could be just a ratio issues between hormones - DHT/E2/T. When I was on AI at least my beard was growing normally, now I'm back to shaving every other week.

This week I will finally start a trial of (very low dose) tren - as for the prolactin issue, I'm on caber, so no better time to do it - and see what a strong androgen, capable to activate the AR without conversion to DHT/E2 can do for me, whether it make me feel worse, better, or just the same.

I was explaining what happened to me, I was running very high T on it even after 16 weeks from my last injection and it was all in my mind that I had low T. Remarkable but I have been on it over ten years so its running full fucking speed lol and I presume its just how I am